One of the most frustrating questions that I get is “Who should I go to?”. I’m often asked this question and I frankly haven’t heard many good comments concerning King County and Washington State’s DVPT programs.
To be frank, the comments have not been good. This is a good opportunity for some to step up here and do the right thing. It would also be good for your business to receive our recommendation.
What I’m seeking here, are testimonials, which will be fact checked by me, concerning the good and fair counselors that may exist out there. Please send your testimonials to jlukas@wadvpress.org or leave comments at the end of this article, with the latter being the less preferred method of choice, as I would like to directly contact those who comment. Please tell us what you think.
93 responses so far ↓
1 jlukas // Nov 4, 2009 at 11:18 am
Another day, more complaints, no answers to this question. There MUST be somebody good out there…..
WADVPress
2 Anon // Nov 6, 2009 at 3:47 pm
I think the no answer is your Answer, Mr. Lukas.
I am in one right now and they are starting to show their true colors after a few months. They began with the “we understand” bit about getting screwed in family court and now they are full on feminasty after a false confession that they said they didn’t need for graduation. What they say in the beginning and how they progress are quite different. They also spew all of the false data and gender bigotry that you have exposed here. I don’t think any of them that are in the state certified club are decent if you didn’t actually commit a crime. If you are falsely accused there is no way of appeasing them until you relent to the ex monster’s false allegations. A full report will be coming soon.
3 jlukas // Nov 6, 2009 at 5:25 pm
So far, so true. If you are experiencing difficulty, I can help.
jlukas@wadvpress.org
WADVPress
4 jlukas // Nov 14, 2009 at 10:38 am
Not one good comment at this point in time….
5 survivor // Nov 15, 2009 at 2:15 pm
I’m curious. Do you think that anybody convicted of DV and mandated to “perp treatment” is actually guilty? DV treatment is not part of the family law process. You’ve got to be arrested and convicted (or plead guilty) and on probation. So, if there are some truly guilty criminals in these “treatment programs” … are the “falsely accused” members of these programs speaking out to blame/critisize their fellow students who have, in fact — no doubt about it, assaulted a woman (or a man)? Or do you think that nobody is ever been beaten up by their partner? Or maybe you think if somebody does take a beataing, then they must deserve it. I really would like to know how you think — or if you can think.
Of course, I hope your campaign to show that the whole perp treatment concept is pretty much BS succeeds. Domestic violence criminals are narcissists, and narcissists can NEVER accept that there is ANYTHING wrong with them or their behavior. They blame anybody and everybody else. So, how could any kind of treatment “help” a person who didn’t do anything wrong in the first place? Afterall, if she hadn’t looked at that guy in the bar, then he wouldn’t have “needed” tu use the baseball bat.
And before you start the femi-nazi crap, my mother was abusive … so I know better than most that domestic violence is NOT just men vs. women.
Anyway, if they get rid of “treatment” then the courts won’t have any choice other than to actually put these criminals (male or female) behind bars. Nobody has the right to hit anybody (male or female).
6 jlukas // Nov 15, 2009 at 7:28 pm
Great post!
This is the type of conversation and dialog that can be truly constructive. Of course there are true victims of DV, and real perpetrators out there. It is my feeling and perception from viewing the family courts that these laws are typically used strategically within the family courts to gain a legal advantage.
My problem is that there are NEVER any consequences for those who use these laws as a weapon, which is much more frequently than those who are true perpetrators of DV IMO.
If not, why couldn’t and wouldn’t assault laws that have been on the books for ages be used?
As far as the “beatings” comment is concerned, I truly believe in the old saying off “It takes two to tango.” It doesn’t say it only takes one, does it? I have little regard for those who instigate misbehavior and hold the same regard for those who react. Why the system only acts on treating only half of the problem and “creating” statistics to back this up is beyond me, except when you consider the financial aspect of it. In addition, these “statistics” fly directly in the face of over 40 years worth of CLINICAL studies that show both genders are equally capable of committing DV.
My problems are with a system hellbent on propagating these lies which violates their own mantra of said inappropriate behaviors, when challenged with such questions.
I agree completely with you that physical solutions to a conflict are highly inappropriate. But, there are different levels of this. I believe repeated behaviors of this nature should be prosecuted directly. That said, equal action should be the same for those who utilize these laws as a weapon and consistently get away with filing false reports and perjurious statements.
I hope that gives you a starting point about my perceptions of DV and the system that runs these laws. If not, please feel free to ask. My life is an open book and I hide absolutely nothing from anybody.
WADVPress
7 The Geezer // Nov 15, 2009 at 8:09 pm
Yes, John. The assault laws have been on the books, and work well.
When we have folks manufacturing data to promote a political agenda (woman good/man bad) , ignoring the science that says it is about 50/50, save for under 25 YO non-reciprocal, where females commit about 60-70%, that makes me wonder. Why, if this is such a high calling, would anyone gin up figures? And why would you testify against your own requested “frequent flyer” bill in the legislature last year?
Heck, I even took time from work to testify FOR, yet the wimmin’s industry representatives, once they realized this could jeoprodize money to pay them for thier cushy jobs, actutally stated that if it hits that funding, and their pay, they would throw victims of frequent flyers under the bus. Truly disgusting.
Having been chased down the hall with a large kitchen knife by Ex #1, which sorta irritated me, and had the house set on fire by #2 when I was asleep, I assure you I am sensitive to victims, particularly when that system that CLAIMS to help both sexes told me to go pound sand.
Nice to see a bit of rational discourse here, but of course, I am still majorly put off by those who continue to drink the Kool-Aid, like the Kingco Prostitutor, who said, “sure, I will talk to you about anything, as long as it is not DV”.
Head in sand, don’t confuse me with peer reviewed and published research. H. L. Mencken said it well, ” Don’t argue with those whose paycheck depends on them not changing their minds”.
Oh, and I will leave you with my other favorite quote by the She-riff. Sheriff Blogfodder, I call her. When offered an opportunity to have the Civil Rights Council train her deputies based on peer-reviewed and published academic research, her response was “I prefer to have my deputies indoctrinated by industry insiders”. No kidding, can’t make that stuff up. Thanks again, Sue, for the bloggfodder.
The Geezer, member
Washington Civil Rights Council and National Coalition for Men (proudly–nothing wrong with being a MAN, even though many believe we are somehow defective)
8 Snoco Sum Biatch // Nov 15, 2009 at 8:40 pm
I am truly sorry that Survivor is a victim of Domestic Violence. Knowing John and the Geezer perosonally, I can attest that they do not support any kind of DV whatsoever, and that they are truly sorry we even have to deal with this issue.
I think John has a great goal, its not to prove that Domestic Violence doesn’t exist, its to prove that an industry does exist, that can only survive if one gender is victimized by ignoring false accusations, while the other gender is held on a pedastal and shown to never make these false accusations.
Can anyone really deny that women do cause domestic violence. Nothing worse than a woman scorned, isn’t that what we were always taught? Yet, these scorned women get away with causing hell in the lives of othes, without ever being accused of being a narcisist like Survivor has called men.
When Men and Women accept that Men and Women perpetrate Domestic Violence, then we can really fix the issue. As long as there are prosecutors and service providers, and judges making a living from bias and special rules for women, we can never really fix anything, except their personal budgets. Who are the real narcisists here? I say its the members of the industry!
Keep up the great work John! Keep it up!
9 survivor // Nov 16, 2009 at 2:14 pm
I have to disagree that the “DV Industry” wouldn’t exist without false accusers. Having been a volunteer at a confidential shelter for over three years, we turned away most calls from females who were seeking support/shelter and the screening process to actually get shelter was intense. There isn’t enough support for women with severe injuries, much less anybody who’s faking it.
I also want to clarify that I didn’t call “men” narcissists … I called “abusers” narcissists. My mother was abusive, so I fully acknowledge that women can be brutal. In fact, most of those I know within the “DV Industry” are aware of that as well.
If you really think that men are brutalized as frequently as women, I’d recommend you check the statistics. But I don’t really give a damn. One victim (of any gender, race, religion, etc.) is one too many as far as I’m concerned. Furthermore, the prosecutors that I know would much rather spend their time on other cases. They find domestic violence to be as complicated and difficult as almost any other crimes, and there is plenty of other crime (auto theft, gang activity and drugs) to keep them very busy. Anybody who thinks the criminal justice system is “supported” by DV is way to self-focused … meaning they believe that everything is all about their own misfortune.
If male victims are under served in regard to shelters, support groups, etc., then I would recommend that men start up their own nonprofits to provide that support. It is virtually impossible to shelter men with women who have been violated.
And I absolutely disagree that anybody, other than the abuser, can “cause” abuse. The appropriate response to a partner who is inappropriate is to LEAVE. Walk away. Nobody ever has a “right” to hit/hurt anybody no matter how “angry” they are.
10 survivor // Nov 16, 2009 at 3:32 pm
BTW … as far as the “it takes two to tango comment” … I remember somebody telling me that “two wrongs don’t make a right.”
11 jlukas // Nov 16, 2009 at 5:47 pm
Most women in DV shelters today are actually homeless women and you know that. This website has gone through women’s shelter’s tax records and there are numerous articles on this website addressing this very issue. The reason these shelters accept homeless women is they get reimbursed for every DV “victim”, as opposed to not getting reimbursed for the homeless. This shameful practice results in less monies going to homeless shelters, while filling up DV shelters with homeless women. In addition, and because of this, true victims are not being helped because these homeless women are occupying beds intended for DV victims.
Don’t believe me? Just take a look at ANY intake questionnaire for a shelter and notice that over 1/3 of it is devoted to DV conflict. Answering “YES” to a simple question like “Have you and your husband ever had a disagreement?” will qualify you to be housed as a DV “victim” even if your primary issue is money and you are single. Its all confidential, and not effectively audited, so the money flows. Worse yet, you already know this.
Cry me a river.
As for the “brutalization” comment, that is where true DV happens. MOST DV comes in the form of accusations in the family courts as I have described above. Apparently, that went right over your head. DV is DV, no matter what gender one is, no matter what the severity. None of it is acceptable.
The statistics are a joke. Please explain to me why they differ so drastically with over 40 years worth of CLINICAL DATA – http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
I recommend that YOU check those “statistics”. But, to give you an example, a man was recently stabbed to death by his girlfriend. She was charged with murder, but no DV charge. When I asked the prosecutor “why not?”, his answer made sense as he alluded to the fact that they had enough to put her away for good. But, when I brought up the imbalance of statistics within the DV Industry, he got it, and agreed to change it. Please explain to me just how accurate those “statistics” are when you know they are gender biased and homeless are counted as DV “victims”?
Puh-leaze!
As for prosecutors, the DV Industry is a 6.4 BILLION dollar per year endeavor. Lawyers, courts, “experts”, “treatment” providers, psychologists, and many others benefit from actions over false and mostly frivolous accusations.
In regards to male victims, federal statutes REQUIRE that monies cannot be handed out with bias towards race OR gender. And, there ARE shelters out there that are finally housing both men and women in DV shelters together as they should. Sadly, most shelters won’t even allow women’s sons if they are over the age of 12. Funding should be pulled for all of those shelters. That’s how bad it is.
As for the “abuse” and the “abuser”, those terms are loosely defined as you will find out from DV treatment providers that it comes in all sorts of forms. In short, it has beome LEGALLY anything a woman wishes to be.
I despise those who use these excuses as a legal weapon as an answer to their own personal problem. It does take two to tango. Right or wrong has nothing to do with it. Life just isn’t that simple.
Hatred is. And it shows in your last posting.
BTW, How are things at KL Gates? And the gender-biased, man-hating Northwest Womens Law Center? Say “Hi” to Ms. Novotny for me. Wish her luck in the Freeman case. Looks like she’s going to need it.
PPS: Why don’t you advocate for men? Your actions drain them of their finances over simple custody cases, thereby destroying their lives. That is true man-hatred.
WADVPress
12 survivor // Nov 16, 2009 at 10:15 pm
You’re creepy, especially referencing confidential litigation. If you had any ethics at all you would never reference any family’s name who was going through a divorce. Shame on you, AGAIN! But I would encourage you to find out who represents who before you start making assumptions. And just for the record, I have no idea who Ms. Novotny is.
I volunteer with the SPD Victim Support team. So, I respond to the scene of the crime and try to help the victims get safe. In 5 years, I have been called to the scene with 2 male victims. We did our best to help them the same way we would help women — although services are few and far between. In those cases, we tried to help them reach out and tell a friend the truth so that they could be safe. It wasn’t easy. Please tell me where the co-ed shelters are so that I can use that resource in my work. I also helped a male friend of mine and explained to him that he was in an abusive and dangerous relationship — something most victims (not just men) do not want to admit to themselves or anybody else. He made the decision to file a police report and his wife was arrested and charged. He still thanks me all the time for helping him face the truth.
There are never enough beds at the women’s shelters, and since I’ve also worked in a shelter for years I have seen the residents there. They are not simply homeless. I don’t understand your point about the questionnaire, but I’ve personally witnessed women being kicked out of the shelter when an advocate determined that they had lied about the abuse. You will believe whatever you want to believe, but I’ve been there. If they were using up DV beds for homeless women, I would be right there with you screaming from the top of my lungs. If I wanted to volunteer my time to help the homeless, I would. I care about DV victims.
I also am in total agreement about false accusations. However, lots and lots of dv victims aren’t even married. The fact that you actually believe that all that money is being spent just so that evil women can screw with their husbands in family court is just plain pitiful.
Have you reviewed the WSCADV fataility review or do you think they make that up as well? This is a crisis and the real violence that is ruining so many lives is a whole lot worse than spending a lot of money on legal fees. Talk about Puh-leeze. The idea that you would compare yourself (or any man who feels raped in family court) to anybody who has been murdered, or raped, or beaten with a baseball bat, or burned with cigarettes, etc., etc., makes me laugh out loud.
I’m sorry for anybody who is falsely accused of anything. I know first hand that the entire justice system depends on truthful testimony. Anybody who commits perjury in any legal case should be severely prosecuted — but, sadly, our society doesn’t much care about the truth anymore. Maybe if you’d get off the “women are evil liars” soap box and make the argument about perjury in general somebody would actually listen. In fact, I’d join you. Just remember the flip side. The SOB who hurt my daughter filed an affidavit opposing her restraining order that was full of lies. Maybe if you were successful in the anti-perjury campaign we could have put him in jail for THAT. He never served a day for what he did to her.
You are a lot more angry with women than I am with men. If you think what happened to you in court was worse than what happened to me and my daughter … I would suggest that YOU need therapy. BTW, my daughter wasn’t married to the SOB … no kids … no reason to lie. He hurt her so badly that she had to have emergency surgery. He sent her to the ER on a BUS!
You’re welcome to scream about the liars … but please don’t try to take away what little support there is for people who have been beaten and traumatized.
As for “simple custody cases” … those rarely exist. Divorce is horrible for everybody, especially the children.
13 jlukas // Nov 17, 2009 at 11:37 am
Funny. Northwest Women’s Law has been associated with KL Gates for quite some time now:
http://www.lambdalegal.org/news/pr/northwest-womens-marriage.html
http://www.klgates.com/professionals/Detail.aspx?professional=3719&extended=true
In fact, they just received a grant from Bill Gates who has relations to your law firm. Your denial here is most suspect. And, you DO know who Ms. Novotny is as she has worked with both. I know that for a fact.
Referencing names that is in the public record is completely legal, which is why I can understand your resentment here. But, lawyers do it all of the time, don’t they? CR11 is all I have to say to that, if you have issues with that.
You did your best for men, even though you recognize there are no services for them. That tells me you did nothing for them and walked away. Did you volunteer them to free legal services afforded women as I suggested? I didn’t think so.
DV shelters take away from the homeless. Like I said, read those intake questionnaires. You can’t be that dense to NOT know what I’m referring to, but it was a “convenient” lapse on your part, I must admit.
We share out feelings towards those that commit false accusations. However, I would like you to point out where you state “women are evil liars”. My statements have been consistent as I hold ALL in the same regard when making false statements. Now, you are getting emotional and pushing buttons with unfair labeling and insults, something which I’ve become very used to when debating FACT that women don’t like or appreciate, much less do anything about. That is somewhat abusive in its own nature, is it not?
I’m not angry at women. I have issues with the system and those who create the culture that exists within Washington State these days. Once again, you attempt to pathetically place these adjectives into my thought process via the use of insults. How much more abuse can you bring to the table before you start to address the homeless issue and other FACTS which I have presented here? I see the insults when the opposition has no rebuttal to the TRUTH. And that’s what I continue to see here.
And, I’m not the one screaming here, if you noticed. I’ve addressed why true victims don’t get the help they need, and you know it is true.
Deal with it.
WADVPress
14 survivor // Nov 17, 2009 at 2:26 pm
I didn’t say that it was illegal for you to use names, I said it was unethical. Perhaps you don’t know the difference.
As to the male victims I tried to help: I am not an attorney so I cannot offer legal advice to anybody. However, I did explain that the legal advocates at the King County Courthouse would help them file for a restraining order. You didn’t give me the names of any co-ed shelters … can you?
Sadly, the male victims I worked with likely got about the same support as most of the female victims. The vast majority of the women don’t contact agencies/advocates. In fact, too many don’t get out of the relationship at all. So, we did safety planning with the male victims, we talked about domination/manipulation/deception techniques that abusive personalities use to isolate and control their victims. We explained that once violence has entered into a relationship it almost always repeats and escalates. We encouraged them to tell the truth to a trusted friend/family member. And that’s about all we can do for any DV victim since the shelters are usually full.
I did say above that I simply don’t understand your issue with the shelter questionnaires. A good chunk of them relate to DV. So, what’s your point? How is that “evidence” that the women in DV shelters are not really DV victims?? Would you expect the intake interview to be about whether they like to cook or something?? It is a DV shelter and the staff need detailed information about the DV in order to help with safety planning, etc. One “yes” answer is not sufficient to be accepted into a confidential shelter. You obviously will never believe that the agencies/advocates do NOT want the limited confidential beds to go to people who are not in immediate risk of harm. In volunteer training that was emphasized repeatedly. They not only screen out the homeless, they often screen out people who have been assaulted in the past but are not in immediate danger. I have personally seen shelter staff make women leave when it was discovered that they had lied during the intake process. The notion that you think you know more about this than I do is beyond arrogant. As I said above, if the DV shelters were not housing real DV victims I would be screaming about it more than you are.
Once again, I have never met or worked with Ms. Novatny, but I am glad that K&L provides pro bono representation to any DV victims — male or female. The fact that you resent it tells me a lot.
The idea that you want to eliminate/reduce services for female victims rather than increasing services for male victims tells me a lot as well.
Of course, I would prefer that the abusers were sent to jail for a long, long time so that nobody would need advocates or shelters.
15 jlukas // Nov 17, 2009 at 4:34 pm
Why is it unethical to use names? Just curious here, as the entire industry is based upon confidentiality. That’s why these problems have happened: – http://wadvpress.org/?p=347 . Besides, its public record. Are you stating that I or anyone else has no right to view and report on public records?
Did you offer any legal services to these men? Did the Northwest Women’s Law Center help those men? I didn’t think so. But, so as not to be rude and make assumptions as you have done here, I’ll simply ask. I’ll expect another non-response from you as you have evaded many of the tough topics that I have brought forward here.
As for co-ed shelters, Antelope Valley in CA was the first to develop a co-ed concept, and it works well: – http://www.avdvc.org/History.htm
They aren’t into man hate there. They simply take the gender bias crap out of the dysfunctional industry practices and treat actual victims as victims, without regard to gender. And it works. Also, when I wrote that article for Men’s News Daily last month, I spoke with a similar shelter in West Virginia that was doing the same thing with a very good result as well. Men are not bad. Women are not bad. But, people do bad things. Punishment is not the answer as the DV treatment providers have proven in WA state. They use threats and coercion to run those classes and many complaints have been filed with the DOH, as they are now in the process of cleaning this up. Those treatment centers cause more resentment and accomplish nothing. That’s what man-hate does.
The questionnaires disproportionately focus on DV, even when IT NOT THE PRIMARY CAUSE for somebody being homeless IN ORDER TO OBTAIN FEDERAL MATCHING FUNDS.
Get it now? THAT IN ITSELF, takes away grant money for homeless people by creating DV “victims” where there are none.
PERIOD. It mucks the statistics up and gives the majority of these shelters a bad name. Here’s HOW they do it: – http://wadvpress.org/?p=103
That article showed that out of over 1.5 Million Federal money of intake, only $25,000 was actually spent on domestic violence victims. This is in line with what has been previously reported. That is shameful and disgusting as we’re constantly told how much of an “epidemic” DV is. Oh, BTW, they spent $47,000 on “indigent” women, admitting in their return just what their practices were. Most of the money is going to pay the salaries of those who run these agencies and not the victims.
You tell me where the problem is.
It’s pretty simple. EDVP told me that 100% of their capacity is held by homeless women, blurring the definition further by equating homeless to DV. I find that hard to believe when a simple restraining order can get a man kicked out of his own home. But, to the kool-aid drinkers, this somehow makes sense?
Hmmmmm……
I simply don’t believe you as we have had plants go into these shelters as volunteers to let us know what is going on. And their reports was not pretty. And, if you wish to know who they are/were, I’ll share my confidential info if you share yours. And that includes looking at the books and verification of what you said.
Here’s what one DV survivor thought: –
Violence Survivor Lobbies to Open VAWA’s Books
http://wadvpress.org/?p=278
I simply bring facts to the table while you continue to attack me with preconceived inaccuracy. I do not want to eliminate/reduce services for female victims, or any victim for that matter. I simply want ramifications for those who use these laws as a weapon. False accusations CAUSE problems for true victims who DON’T RECEIVE SERVICES, because resources are being spent on those who use the laws as a weapon. Once A-G-A-I-N. you fail to grasp even the slightest of issues here. This would actually help the system and enable BETTER services to occur. This is what and how man-haters think. I would prefer that the actual assault laws be restored as it shows how hearsay rules in the civil courts and is one of the main reasons we have the highest per capita of our population in prison of any civilized country on this earth. Punishment does not work. Rehabilitation utilizing CLINICAL techniques does.
But, you go ahead and continue to bleat out the failed mantra’s of the industry. You are further dooming yourself to repeated failure every time you and others do.
BTW, What DO you do at KL Gates?
16 Snoco Sum Biatch // Nov 18, 2009 at 12:23 am
It seems that the point that wadvpress is trying to make here, that survivor is missing is an important one, and it addresses one of her concerns about not enough money for true DV victims.
Survivor states there is not enough money for dv Victims. Let’s accept that as a fact. However, its not for a lack of money being available, as WAdvpress is pointing out. It’s because shelters for the homeless are making their forms to include DV, so that if someone marks DV in the homeless shelter, they get access to the facility, taking away important money from true DV shelters.
There are some good shelters, and there are many bad ones. My firm always spent our Christmas party fixing up shelters, the good ones need help.
So, the two of you should put your heads together and work to get DV funding out of shelters for homeless, and into shelters for DV victims, male and female.
One point here that has not been made. I can tell you that in at least one county, when a male goes to the DV desk for assistance in filling out DV paperwork, they are given anti-harrassment orders, not DV restraining orders. When a woman goes to the county, they are given DV Restraining orders. I don’t know if this is training by their agency, or what, but it happens, and we provided it for two different attorneys.
There is no denying that it is bias.
And, you both agree on the prosecuting of all false accusers, I think this will be an easier read, which I am enjoying by the way, if you remove that subject from discussion, you are in agreement. The point neither of you have brought up is why they don’t prosecute them? It’s easy, there is no VAWA money for it, it cost the County money, so they won’t do it. If it was reimbursed by VAWA, you would see 100% compliance I think.
So, why the hell do I pay taxes then, if the County Prosecutors won’t prosecute people that break ALL laws?
keep up the debate………… maybe others can learn from it.
17 survivor // Nov 18, 2009 at 2:25 pm
John, john, john. I guess you don’t understand the word ethical. Yes, divorce cases are public record … but I believe it is unethical to take a family’s name from the court records and throw it around the internet. And if unethical is too strong … how about just flat out bad manners and disrespectful of their privacy. It also seemed like an attempt to intimidate me. If so, no worries, because I won’t be intimidated again. The worst anybody could do is to kill me, and I’ve faced that … so I just don’t scare easily anymore. BTW, it’s none of your business what I do at K&L. What do you do for a living?
I described in my above post how I tried to help the male victims that I encountered. I also made it clear that most female victims don’t take advantage of the services that are available to them either — so in that way too many female victims are in the same boat with male victims.
I can’t offer legal services from either K&L or Northwest Women’s Law Center. I said that above as well. I find it sad that anybody is jealous/resentful about injured women getting legal representation, but again … if women have been able to obtain funding and get lawyers to represent them, maybe men should do the same thing for themselves. I would support having the WSBA require all divorce attorneys to have at least one active, pro bono DV case (representing the victim / male or female) at all times. It sounds to me like you want to shut down the services for women because there aren’t equal services for men. How silly and selfish is that????
I think you also miss the point that out of countless female victims I encountered at the time of their assult (no faking these cases — I was called to the scene by SPD as a VST volunteer) over the past 5 years, I have ONLY seen 2 men. So, whatever your statistics may be … in real life if you talk to real cops … they will all tell you that more women end up with severe injuries than men. But, as I said several times, I do NOT consider it some kind of twisted competition. I wish we could STOP all violence against ANYBODY!
I believe I misunderstood the questionnaire issue. If SSB’s post is correct, then John is saying that the intake questionnaires at homeless shelters (not confidential DV shelters) ask about DV … and that allows non-dv homeless agencies to get dedicated VAWA funding. If so, then that that sux. But THAT would would be the “Homeless Industry” misbehaving … right?
I believe there is almost no prosecution of perjury (in civil, criminal or family law) because the justice system is accommodating society. People lie all the time. They lie under oath — all the time. (I’ll never forget a man coming into a deposition on a personal injury case with a neck brace and crutches. He was too dumb to know that we had his medical records.) If we think the jails are packed now … I can’t imagine what it would look like if we tried to put everybody in jail for false statements. Of course, I’d vote for building more jails … but I’m sure that’s the primarly problem. I did suggest alternative sanctions for perjury, and I will continue to do my best to focus attention on the problem.
The idea that DV convictions are overpopulating our prisons is just rediculous. It is the “War on Drugs” that causes this problem and anybody in touch with reality is clear about that. I don’t understand why we treat addiction like a crime and violence like an illness — but that’s another topic.
And I don’t necessarily want to punish anybody either. I just want to separate predators from their prey. If there was a tropical island with a 5 star hotel and 1,000 psychologists on staff to work with perpetrators … that’d be fine with me. Just don’t let them walk around freely staking, threatening, intimidating, and attacking the “focus of their attention.”
IMHO “treatment” cannot “help” a narcissist. End of story. And anybody who tries to say that it can is full of false hope. It also isn’t an “anger management” problem. The man who hurt me (who came very, very close to murder/suicide) managed his anger like a surgical instrument. He was totally able to “manage” it in public. He was able to “manage” his anger in order to “gain compliance” from me. He considered me his “property.” I was treated pretty much like an animal who he intended to “train” in order to meet his needs … no matter what. Talk about SICK.
I don’t know how many men reading this blog have daughters … but, if so, please think twice about your little girls before you protect men who assault women and later deny it or blame their victims. They are a very dangerous sub-set. They are often intelligent, cunning, charming, educated, and successful. But under the surface, they are dangerous. And you can count on me to hold violent women equally accountable.
18 jlukas // Nov 18, 2009 at 3:08 pm
I make no efforts to intimidate. I apologize in advance if you have taken it as such. Ethically speaking, public record must be brought forward in order to make improvements as citing of cases where misbehavior has happened is a necessary tool to accomplish that.
Kudos to you for trying to help male victims. As you know, most have a hard time even complaining about being abused by a woman. Those that do have been ridiculed and insulted. Maybe that wasn’t you, but it does happen. I believe KL Gates recently was involved in a trial where a woman beat up her man and was ordered into DV treatment, where she pulled the rape card. The problem was that he had pictures of them at a party of the weekend she claimed she was “repeatedly raped”. In addition, he also had shopping receipts and phone records from the weekend.
So, this evaluator was now in a position of having to justify how one could throw a party at their house, rape his girlfriend, take her shopping, rape her, let her get on the phone and rape her again. And both she and Mr Todd both acknowledged that there was no police report filed. Instead, he used “syndromes” to describe her behavior while she insisted what she said was true, without any remorse whatsoever. In addition, no police report was ever filed. Dale Todd enabled her to do this, without a lick of evidence. And, he made lots of money for his treatment and trial testimony.
It cost this man (the real victim) over $100,000 to clear his name, which it was, but both her and Mr. Todd walked away unscathed without even as much as a slap on the wrist for introducing false evidence into the courtroom. This man (the real victim) has a daughter who he loves dearly, and look what the mother subjected her to, instead of taking responsibility for her actions. That’s where legal advocacy could have helped him. It simply is not available to men.
And, thank you for understanding the VAWA issue. I would like to make clear that DAWN and EDVP use this tactic consistently, thereby ensuring their beds are occupied and their statistics are inflated. But, when a true victim gets turned away because of this, change is in need. Apparently, the reimbursement dollars are more important than the “service” that they provide. That tax return that I showed you was from DAWN. It does suck. Remember EDVP claims 100% of their occupants are homeless. Call them up and see for yourself.
I agree with you and your stance on addiction as well. The prisons are not meant for either these folks or non-repetitive DV “offenders”.
I have mixed emotions on the separation of couples. Some need it, some don’t. I feel both need counseling when it escalates to a point where the law has to step in, in the majority of cases. There are true cases out there that are outright brutality, and I have absolutely no sympathy for what happens to them. I have equal sympathy for those who use these laws as leverage and as a weapon. It has been shown to be not working. Here is the White House’s own assessment of VAWA: –
NOT PERFORMING
Results Not Demonstrated
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/expectmore/summary/10002150.2004.html
What does that tell you? I speak the truth here when I talk about the MAJORITY of cases which involve little or no physical activity. CLINICAL SCIENCE backs that up: – http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
I’m sorry for your situation and what happened to you. That was sick and I’m glad you got away from him. My ex embezzled $30,000 from me with the help of DAWN prior to filing false allegations against me. I failed the DV class by an instructor who is now under legal investigation at the DOH. In other words, my complaint with the DOH had enough merit for it to move on to the legal phase. This man ruined my life. I used to make $71,000/yr. as a Network Administrator and left the state in disgust as they wanted to put me in jail because I failed this narcissistic class. That’s equally as sick.
As for your last paragraph, the same could and can be said of women. I would gladly share the time and stories that come across my desk involving just that and the bag of dirty tricks used by a system that enables them to do so, just like that woman who beat up her boyfriend, only to pull a false rape accusation out, than not even face punishment for it.
What kind of message does that send?
jlukas@wadvpress.org
WADVPress
19 survivor // Nov 18, 2009 at 5:06 pm
I am against injustice. If you were falsely accused, then I am truly sorry. Losing your job and a ton of money is terrible. I do NOT want to compete. I do NOT want to put injustice on some kind of scale to argue about who’s is worse. But I must still point out that being beaten and then hunted down like an animal, wondering when (not if) somebody you used to sleep with is going to find you and attack you is very different than losing your job or even a ton of money. When I ran from my first husband, I left EVERYTHING behind … and then I lived in absolute terror for a long, long time. Were you afraid of your Ex?
I don’t discuss “abuse” that does not involve physical violence so your clinical studies don’t matter much to me. I focus on DV cases that involve physical injuries and criminal charges — and there are way, way too many of those. That doesn’t mean that I don’t believe emotional/psychological/spiritual abuse doesn’t matter. But, there isn’t much that the law can do about it. So, whenver you and I are talking about DV victims … please note that I am ONLY referring to individuals who have been physically assaulted.
As far as EDVP stating that all of their residents are homeless … I still don’t get your point. Of course they are all homeless. If they had a place to live that was SAFE, that’s where they would rather be. The shelters are awful, so nobody wants to be there. However, just because they are all “homeless” does not mean that they are NOT also legitimate DV victims. And I’m sorry, but I just can’t figure out how you think the tax return proves your point.
What is your real goal? Do you want VAWA to be rescinded? Do you want to shut down DV shelters? Do you want to end all legal/financial support for female victims even if they were actually assaulted? Seems to me that would be giving the fakers another way to hurt the real victims. We already have to beg people like you to believe us because others lie about it. And now you want to take away all services for female victims just because of the fakers??
20 survivor // Nov 18, 2009 at 5:09 pm
BTW, if you really want to know more about DV then you shouldn’t be watching family court … you should be watching criminal court … primarily District Court … because most DV crimes are charged as misdomeanors.
21 jlukas // Nov 18, 2009 at 5:49 pm
I’ve lost well over $500,000 and counting due to this. And my story is one of the lighter ones. Many more have lost much more than that. I too, am against injustice of any sort and I have helped women as well as men. The problem as I see it is a dysfunctional culture against men when it comes to DV.
I lived in an abusive relationship that lasted 18 1/2 years. It was my fault for not leaving her sooner. Then, I took her back, … twice. I have a good heart and could not imagine why somebody would want to use the laws and have that much hate to do something like that to me. I WAS a good husband. I wasn’t perfect, but nobody is. But, I certainly did not deserve that. That’s why I’m an activist for men as I noticed many studies out there completely neglect men’s feelings and dealings with being in a committed relationship. I’ll never be in a relationship again after what happened to me.
No, I was not afraid of my ex. I take that back. I was afraid of trust and commitment issues that she exhibited. She used a lot of manipulation, emasculation bullying and gaslighting. It was hard. I’ve had wine glasses and TV remotes amongst other things thrown at me, was hit and spit at, yet never called the police. It just didn’t seem like a constructive way to try and correct these problems. That was my bad.
EDVP and other agencies help to issue restraining orders. That means the man gets tossed from his own home, much like what happened to me. I was the one who was homeless, not she. I find it curious that so many can be homeless when a simple restraining order creates homeless situations for men, as opposed to women. Can you understand that?
My real goal has nothing to do with what you suggested above, and I really wish you’d stop with those extremist assumptions. I wish VAWA to be gender inclusive, not exclusive. I wish the same advocacy, legal services and shelters to be made available to BOTH genders. I wish to have the statistical information CLEANED UP, as it drives the monies and disinformation behind DV. And I would really wish for ramifications for those who use these laws as an excuse, especially in the family courts, as children need BOTH parents. People need to learn to bury the hatchet and that’s the type of support that should be given to warring couples.
What we have today, is anything but. I don’t believe all women are victims, not do I think they want to be treated as such. Extremist gender-feminists have hijacked these laws and movements.
Note that I used the word “gender-feminists” as I am a feminist and believe in true equality. Extremist gender-feminism is truly evil in my book.
WADVPress
22 jlukas // Nov 18, 2009 at 6:06 pm
“because most DV crimes are charged as misdomeanors.”
Exactly. Which is what I’ve been contending all along. I firmly believe that all first time offenses should be issued a warning. That should be enough to wake most couples up. But destroying lives and relationships and making people start all over just ramps up the resentment towards the system and is counterproductive in the long run. I’m talking about DV4′s here. Instead, everyone is making money from the lawyers, to the judges, “experts”, treatment centers, parole and jail costs, not to mention the cost of starting all over. Now, if you have kids, it gets exponentially worse. Tell, me, how is this productive? and just what positive changes are accomplished?
23 survivor // Nov 19, 2009 at 7:50 am
You think an “official warning” will “wake up” most violent partners? I just saw a presentation on recitivism on ALL crimes in the state. It was done for the Dept of Corrections and was not designed with DV (or any other specific crime) in focus. However, when they finished with their “stats” DV ended up with the highest recitivism risk than any other crime by a long shot. So, even arrest, incarceration, probation and treatment apparently doesn’t “wake up” most offenders. I don’t think anybody should need a 911 call and a police officer to give them a “warning” about hitting their partner. That’s what cops used to do for decades and victims had nobody to help them escape the volence. Furthermore, victims rarely call 911 the first time they are assaulted. So, by the time most are in “the system” there is a pattern of violence established. IMHO, the only way to “fix” that kind of problem is to separate. PERIOD. We’ll probably have to agree to disagree on this point.
I also don’t think that you should blame yourself for staying with your ex-wife for so long. The average DV victim leavaes and goes back into the relationship 7 times. And that is often motivated by the kids. In my opinion, once violence has started it will not stop and the children are much better off if the parents split up. The damage done to the kids watching their parents hurt each other (even if it is what you might call mutual combat) is much worse than divorce/separation. Once anybody is throwing and hitting the “relationship” is already destroyed even if it hasn’t ended.
My abuser thinks he was a good husband, too. I’m sure he still believes that it was my fault. He believed that he was pretty much perfect … typical narcissist.
Somebody has to leave the house in every divorce. That’s the point, right? The courts tend to lean in the direction that the primary caregiver (pattern and practice) of the children has a stronger interest in staying in the family home … this is true without DV allegations.
Most of the shelter residents I worked with were so afraid of their abuser that they ran first and then filed for restraining orders just to keep the abuser from stalking them. I ran to another state and he followed me. That’s when I filed for protection, and I’m not unique. I worked with some women (who didn’t even have children) who had changed their identities so that their abuser couldn’t find them. That meant that they gave up all of their prior relationships, their resume, their school trancripts, etc.
You are very focused on the money while I am very focused on the damage/injuries. I couldn’t calculate how much money I lost, but I didn’t give a damn. I was safe, and that’s all that mattered. Starting all over was horribly difficult, but it was way better than living in terror.
24 jlukas // Nov 19, 2009 at 11:29 am
We’ll agree to disagree on many topics and that’s OK. My perspective if from a man’s point of views, your’s is mostly from a woman’s point of view. Please let me know if that is not the case.
The recidivism was mentioned for ALL crimes in the state. My suggestions were for DV 4′s and DV 4′s only. So, take that with a grain if salt. Like I said, children need both parents that are not warring couples, which is what the family courts turn them into with all of the allegations being slung back and forth. You fail to mention your source of theses “facts”, which you will find that I will always question as well, because you know my skepticism there, especially those who have been indoctrinated by bad stats. Please let me know your sources, and whether any of those sources include both women and men equally in those stats.
Also, I don’t buy into your statement that victims have had no recourse. Assault laws have been on the books forever. They also have protective relatives that can act on their behalf. It is because women CHOOSE to be victims and play that card well, that men have lost out bigtime.
The fact that you moved out of state tells me that you may have broken some kind of parenting agreement in doing so. Men also like to have contact with their children. Holding them as hostages is supposed to diffuse the situation and make them feel better? C’mon, girl. You know what that game does. It drains him of all of his finances as he has to then fight it in court while you have advocates doing your battles for you, free of charge. Tell me with a straight face, please, that this is constructive.I would also like to hear his side of the story after learning this.
Your focus is admirable, but in conflict with your statement of MOST DV cases being nowhere near this type of severity yesterday. You stated that most are misdemeanors, an I agree with that. Threating all the same as yours, when they are not, increases the money flow. Now, if they can create and treat different degrees of PROVEN abuse accordingly, I would be all for that. Until then, accusations and hearsay still rule. And that helps nobody. It makes it worse for all.
WADVPress
25 TheJKH // Nov 19, 2009 at 10:06 pm
Wow, lots going back and forth here.
lets start with the initial question, are there any actual dvpt classes that actually “treat” a abuser or accused abuser? I dont know about Washington but in Hawaii I was ordered to attend 12 weekly classes for anger management. The place I went to is now shut down, he actually did treat and not just make the people attending feel they are horrible people.
see his son commited suicide after his ex accused him and he was forced to go thru all the classes and all the courts, he commited suicide cause he knew he would never have a relationship with his child and his name was ruined and he had no recourse. after his death a lot of evidence was found, of her being the aggresive one and her being the control freak and destroying this mans self respect.
so this therapist that had very good career and was very glad to be incharge of his high earning office learns his son commited suicide and does some research, turns out his son was a in large percentage of suicide’s, falsley acused causing deep depression. This guy decides he will work with men going thru the courts, not just the falsley accused but all ordered to anger management, taking a very large pay cut but now really helping people.
The first day I was asked what happened, I told them I was innocent and he asked if I would do hypnossis just to see were my mind set was, I was nervous but agreed. After that session his assistant was almost crying, she said my love for my child was very strong to have gone thru what I did. Turned out I told them almost every incident that my ex had attacked me, I have no recolection but I was under for 3 hours, they even lost track of time. He treated me very well and he is a very good man/therapist.
unfortunmatley because he told the truth about his patients to the court and not just what they wanted to hear, some clients were good and some needed more work, he started getting harassed by the prosecutors office and told what he better say about the client in court, he refused. he is no longer working with the state. I attempted to look him up several times to try to get him involved in victims rights but he has vanished, his old assistant said that dealing with the courts have made him a different man and he couldnt handle what they were doing and getting away with
my case, like many others, I was in a relationship with a woman, early on she got pregnant, then the bitch switch turned on. she began insulting me, spending all my money on whatever, even though she was supposed to be paying bills, she refused to work, she would kick, punch, spit, often drawing my blood, she would humiliate me infront of friends/family I wasnt allowed to hang out with anybody that I knew before meeting her including my own mother, she knew I would never hit her and she used tht against me just grind me down, I was so emotionally drained I couldnt fight back, when ever she would get in a mood or not get her way I would just try to leave, just try to walk away, she would drag my 3 yo son out and yell things like “look at your faggot father, he wants to leave you, he isnt man enough to fight he knows Ill kick his ass” ofcourse we lived in a apartment and this would happen infront of the building, I would have to hang my head cause I knew the neighbors thought we were white trash. It was a very long almost years, 3 times I called the cops on her, 2 times they both just would laugh and tell me to let her cool off, she was only blowing steam, the other time the cop told me I would lose custody if I filed against her!! A friend of mine was attacked by her once cause he let the door slam, she almost broke his nose, he filed a police report, the cop showed up and was going to arrest me, once my ex and I both told him it was her that attacked Jason he just laughed while looking at her and the pic of Jason all bloody, she was a attractive southern bell type, and said he wouldnt do anything about it. I knew one guy and we became friends, I would tell him about her and I was there only for my son, she insisted if I ever left her I would never see my son again. He knew what was going on. He slept with her and they made plans to move to the mainland in one night, she had that lethal attraction women perfect, the one that makes a man do anything. I got pissed, trashed his place and got arrested. She filed against me for attaking her when I never put a finger on her. I wasnt allowed to file against her cause it would be retalitory accusations. My witnesses were not allowed to tell the courts how they have all, 5 of them, seen her attack me, with knives, skillets or just fists and boots, they werent allowed to say how they have had to help me several time while she continued to attack me while unconsiece, how many times they had to clean up my blood or her spit out of my eyes so I could see clearly, how many times she had punched or spit on my face and I would even move, how many times I had just given up and let her attack me. I had no voice of truth, I couldnt afford the best attorney in town, I couldnt even use the free ones because she had gotten to them all before I could even though she had the best attorney in town partly paid for by the local womans advocacy, she didnt have a single witness or anything. Her weapons were her good looks and her southern tone mix with the ability to pou and looks sad, thats all she needed, after seeing everything go down I was told my best chances were to plead guilty to assault 3rd petty misdemeanor, or go to jail, after seeing how the court went down I took it, even though I had never once in my life layed a hand on her and had several witness and hospital reports and called the cops on her.
TELL ME THE SYSTEM IS FAIR!!
She has continued to lie in court, she has mentally harmed my child, she has been able to keep me from my child for 3 years without contact even though I have to court orders saying Im allowed visitation 3 times a year, daily phone contact and unlimited unsupervised visits when Im in his town, I have unlimited contact with his teachers and doctors, BUT HAVE NO IDEA WHAT STATE THEY ARE IN. Everytime I get her pinned down for custody trial she sidelines me with false accusations and false reports that I have to deal with before I can deal with the custody court. She has been warned 16 times in family court to follow court orders, each time I brought her to court for failing to follow the court orders, IE, not sending my child for visits, not letting me speak to him, whatever. She has never been punished once, she still has custody, I can only afford to take her to court once in a while cause lawyers arnt cheap and I cant use the local free once, she allready has her name on their record, even though she has never been here in her life as soon as she founf out I was moving here she called them and got me so i couldnt use them.
so here I sit, unable to see my sone, accused of a different thing everytime I get her to court, she is abusing my son, like you said once narsisstict its untreatable right?
the judge in my criminal case saw what she was doing to me and let me off probation early and took the charge off my record, he said he felt I was unjustly convicted. It was nice but to little to late
tell me the system isnt broken
26 survivor // Nov 19, 2009 at 10:35 pm
I don’t think anybody believes the system isn’t broken. In fact, I have heard stories just like yours many times from female victims. We call them “victim-defendants” who were either finally retalitating or defending themselves. Of course, I’m a 100% no violence so I don’t excuse that (for either gender). But, I try all the time to explain that sociopathic, narcissistic, violent behavior doesn’t have much to do with gender — and ALL of it should be exposed and held accountable. If we didn’t waste so much time in the men vs. women BS argument and focused on the people out there who are true predators, manipulators, violators, and too often murderers … then everybody wins.
As far as treatment goes, I’m glad you had what you believe was a good experience. However, the whole hypnotism thing is a little hard for me. I’ve suffered a lot of abuse. My memory is, let’s say, cloudy. I don’t remember a lot of specifics … but I know what happened … believe me.
You guys might not want to think about this, but if women hadn’t started talking about this kind of abuse toward them … you would still be living under the macho shame telling YOU to never say, or write a word about it. And I’m not saying that you are free to do that now, really. But at least it is easier for you than it would have been 10 or 20 years ago.
I have a close female friend who was arrested 8 times, and her abuser never went to jail even though he beat her up with a baseball bat. She would never turn him in or testify against him. Sometimes we talk about it like a cult of two. It’s like Jonestown. For some reason you can’t explain, you continue to tolerate the trauma.
I know another survivor who’s husband was able to convince the cops that she was an alcoholic and they took away her children. Virtually everything he said was a lie, but he had all the money and power and influence.
At some point, we have to agree that this isn’t a competition. Men and women are getting hurt very, very badly everyday. I’m all for any effort to stop false accusations … but I’m a lot more interested in figuring out how to help people like you.
27 jlukas // Nov 20, 2009 at 11:22 am
I don’t think anybody cares the system is broken, … as long as they’re making money. Lawyers get paid whether they win or lose, don’t they? Let’s have some more heavy denial here, as I’ve also heard of “victim perpetrators”. That’s what they call women convicted of DV in WA. But, the key word that I won’t hear from you is double-standard. That’s really sad.
So far, I’ve been labeled “creepy”, by you. You’ve also denied any association with the NWWLC, won’t tell me what you do at KL Gates, even though you post from there. You’ve denied the homeless issue, even though you ADMIT that most DV cases are the minor DV4 cases, then bring up a few EXCEPTIONS as the basis for your position.
Meanwhile, I continue to bring up major CLINICAL STUDIES that have been ignored by you, along with the homeless being counted as “victims” in shelters, that should, in the least, raise some suspicion in ANY logical mind with solid basis the the statistics are skewed heavily in favor of women.
All you can offer here is your “politically correct” rhetoric, that “all violence is bad”, which I don’t believe. I must ask you. Were you involved in that false rape case that ended two weeks ago? You know. The one where KL Gates represented a woman who had given her boyfriend a bloody lip and black eye, then pulled the rape card on him while she was in that “victim perpetrator” treatment? I can name names if I need to here, or you can just answer the question. Mr. Todd enabled her, even though the man who was beat up had pictures of them at a party, phone records and shopping receipts from that weekend that she “claimed” she was raped.
WERE YOU INVOLVED IN THAT? KL GATES WAS.
And you have the gall to use the words “Macho Shame” here.
You should be ashamed of yourself. If not, identify yourself, that is, if you’re not too ashamed to admit who you are after that shameful child custody case.
28 survivor // Nov 20, 2009 at 1:56 pm
I still think you’re creepy … it feels very much like you want to know who I am and what I do so that you can set up some kind of sneak attack. You say you don’t want to intimidate me, and then you put up a very intimidating (even threatening) post. Shame on you … and I think that’s 3 times so far. So, I’m not ashamed to identify myself … but I’m not stupid either. You’re not just creepy … you’re risky.
Why don’t you identify yourself, and tell me what your ex-wife had to say about your marriage?
NO … I did not have anything to do with your rape case. I’ve read the article about it here and I see your repeated posts … kinda fixated, I’d say. In spite of your bias which makes me question your accuracy, I think they should both do time. I started this thread saying that I don’t trust “treatment providers” … so I’m not going to argue about Mr. Todd, either. However, I can understand how a victim can “party and shop” with their partner and still feel like they are being raped. I know that gives your brain stretch marks, and I’m not going argue about it either. I have worked with other victims who endured horrible things in the bedroom (acts that I’d imgine would even disgust you) who still “pretended” that everything was OK during the daytime … that Jonestown mentality I mentioned above. A lot of victims, even the man who posted here, hide the trauma.
The serial predator who hurt my daughter attached a “transcript” of a voicemail that she left him to his false affidavit. She sent it only a few days before she called 911 to have SPD stand by so she could get her stuff. Her message was full of sweetness and concern for him … but that was because if he didn’t hear that from her, then the punishment would be severe. In reality, she was trying to figure out how to get away from him safely. And please remember that they weren’t married and they didn’t have any kids. BTW, I guarantee you that “treatment” would never have “helped” that SOB. I really wanted to kill myself when I realized that I was actually praying that he would find another girl (knowing he would hurt her, too) just so he would not be focused on my girl.
29 jlukas // Nov 20, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Just what I thought. Rail on the creepy issue, and ignore the gender-biased stats that show a clear and decisive imbalance.
May I remind you that you came across with those “assessments” before we got into it. That’s shows a preconceived ideology prior to discussing and accepting FACTUAL information.
And, it was not MY rape case, it was a simple child custody case where she pulled the rape card after beating him up. That reinforces my opinion towards your bias as I would like to know just how “a victim can “party and shop” with their partner and still feel like they are being raped”, as you stated. Maybe men feel the same way, when they feel used as sperm donors and paychecks. But, you only stay biased to one part of the equation here that remains a stretch at best.
You remain committed to your professional “victimhood” than anything else as you must feel a need to continue to justify it instead of moving on, which is very possible under the current laws.
While I continue to AGREE with you on the egregious actions of a few, I also agree with you that MOST DV cases are DV4′s which come nowhere near the nightmares of what you have described above. You seem to want to make every DV act and act of revenge and punishment, based upon your own and other’s nightmares.
Me, on the other hand, have taken the time to describe a better system and how that system would work. And none of it had ties to my personal experiences, with the exception of false allegations.
Tell me. There are and were assault laws on the books already. Why could they have not been used effectively? My answer is that they REQUIRE proof and not hearsay, which is the way it should be. If somebody is assaulted, pictures can be taken and convictions can be prosecuted. DV laws circumvent these processes.
As for the “fixated” comment”, try again. That pathetic response shows that you DO know of that case through KL Gates and know of the embarrassment it could bring when it goes public. If not, you would feel free to speak of it as you have concerning many other topics here.
But, you and she, and Mr. Todd walked away without even a rebuke while it cost Mr. J over $100,000 to prove his innocence. They both should have been ordered into respectful parenting classes to begin with, without him having to spend that kind of money. That’s WHY i despise NWWLC and Pat Novotny and her cronies. KL Gates also contributes and works towards these kind of injustices.
Shame on them as well.
I think its good that you continue to post here as it shows just how bad the system is and the total lack of regard for injustices from the likes of you and KL Gates. CR11 laws can and will change that. But, please continue to display your hatred for anyone that challenges the system as it is. I encourage that.
WADVPress
30 survivor // Nov 20, 2009 at 2:54 pm
I repeatedly tell you that I do not understand how a tax return “proves” that people are in DV shelters without being DV victims. I have worked in one of those shelters, and witnessed the screening process. It is intense and the applicant must be in “imminent danger” to be accepted. The hardest part of my volunteer work was hearing the fear in a woman’s voice on the crisis line and having to tell her that there were no beds. I also work directly with victims through the Seattle Police Department Victim Support Team and we try to find shelter space, but it is rarely available. Unless you’ve got better “evidence” than the tax return, I will not believe that EDVP or DAWN are putting “homeless only” women into their programs just to get funding. It simply isn’t necessary. There are way too many real victims trying to get a bed. It makes no sense, whatsoever.
So, let me get this straight. Are you saying that you don’t think that all violence is bad? When do you think it’s good to be violent? I really want to know. Maybe you do believe in the Wild Wild West. This is 2009, Dude. Civilized folks should be able to deal with conflict without violence. “DO NO HARM, except to defend yourself or to defend another who cannot defend him/herself.”
I don’t admit that most DV is “minimal.” But I do “admit” that it is very difficult to charge anybody with a DV felony. That requires something like a broken bone or life threatening injury. So, black eyes and cigarette burns would be DV4 … furthermore, most DV felonies are plead down to misdomeanors. Maybe you think it’s OK to hurt somebody a little bit … as long as you don’t break any bones? Is that your point?
BTW, did you know that the City of Seattle reports that almost 1/2 of the people in DVPT have been convicted of DV before!! So, please don’t tell me that two women lied about them, or that they were so stupid that they stayed with the first woman who sent them to jail “unjustly.” Here’s the source: http://www.seattle.gov/humanservices/domesticviolence/2008BiennialReport111709.pdf
31 jlukas // Nov 20, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Don’t take my word for it. A-G-A-I-N, call up EDVP and they will tell you they house 100% homeless women. A-G-A-I-N, I find that hard to believe as retraining orders remove MEN from their homes. They would be homeless, not the women. But, go ahead and ask for a board member at EDVP to verify what I’m telling you is the truth.
“Imminent” danger can easily be obtained by answering yes to even the most basic of questions. WHY must I repeat myself here? I HAVE brought this up earlier.
In response, WHY don’t these women call the cops and get a restraining order and have the house to themselves as most do? They can’t all be that stupid. And you can’t be that stupid to believe that’s not possible.
As for the evidence, I would LOVE to get a hold of their books, as that DV survivor wanted. But, they run under the cover of “confidentiality”, and YOU KNOW THAT. So stop with the frivolous points and stop changing the subject with every one of your posts.
My opinion is that ALL violence is bad, except in instances where self defense in called for. Your extremist views keep trying to rail me into something that I’m not. I have REPEATEDLY stated that as well in this thread.
Most cases ARE minimal. DV4′s ARE minimal. Cigarette burns are not a DV 4. That would be criminal assault. So would black eyes. Once again, you are grasping at straws with your extremist gender-feminists views that ALL women are victims, regardless. I intend to hurt nobody. Never have, and I never will. But, your extremist gender-feminist views will continue to paint me as some sort of aggressor, which I am not. Go ahead. Take your best shot. I’ve seen it. I’ve heard it. And I often wonder about those who bring up this type of violence as they know women can do that without repercussion. Women can pull the rape card with false accusations without repercussion. Please show me a trend where women are being held accountable for false allegations.
And, those stats don’t include men as victims, are cherry-picked by WSCADV and can be anything a woman desires it to be. It makes them money. Otherwise, there would not be a drastic imbalanced between what is “reported” and data from CLINICAL STUDIES: – http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
Now, go ahead and ignore those points once more and keep changing the subject as you are exposing yourself for the emotional wreck of junk science that exists out there and how all men should get behind this as women never exhibit this type of behavior, do they?
VAWA should be called the Domestic Violence Act. Period. This site lists MANY instances where females are violent and where your junk science does not reflect this. It is self suiting to garner Federal dollars. We know about the money flow though CTED and other avenues, none of which you will recognize as you are too embarrassed to admit the truth, and your occupation.
WADVPress
32 survivor // Nov 20, 2009 at 3:40 pm
You won’t ever believe me … but I do NOT, I repeat … I do NOT know anything about the “custody/rape case” other than what you’ve posted here. If they both committed crimes, then they both should do time. What else do you need me to say about it?
Maybe you didn’t read my paragraph comparing theJKH (above) failure to disclose his abuse as compared to a women who could “shop and party” and still get raped at night. Surely, you aren’t one of those men who thinks that after marriage the husband has the right to do anything to his wife at any time. Please tell me you’re more human than that. I’m sure that that during the years of theJKH marriage he rarely told anybody about what the humiliation he was experiencing at home. The fact that you can’t wrap your mind around the similarity just shows that you’re either sheltered or extremely narrow-minded.
33 jlukas // Nov 20, 2009 at 3:47 pm
What should HE do time for? He was beat up by his girlfriend, who then pulled the rape card on him.
I view marriage as a mutually inclusive relationship. That’s where they work best. I’m not sure where you’re getting these thoughts from, but they push me more toward not buying what you’re selling than anything else.
Have you called EDVP yet?
As for the JKH, I know him and have helped him as he’s still getting jacked around by the courts, at his expense. You could make a real believer out of me by getting the NWWLC (Northwest Women’s Law Center) to act on his behalf. Or, are they a “women’s only” club?
KL Gates contributes to them.
34 survivor // Nov 20, 2009 at 5:54 pm
The women that EDVP house are 100% homeless AND they are DV victims. Why is that so hard for you to understand? They are homeless because if they stay in the house a piece of paper won’t keep a real DV perp from coming after them. In fact, most of them quit their jobs, too. We often advise them NOT to file for a protective order because too often it triggers an even more violent reaction.
We probably do agree that in cases where the alleged perpetrator actually respects a protective order … it isn’t much of a risk. That is not the kind of DV that I care about too much … but that is what you care about the most. That goes back to you’re focused on Family Court and I’m focused on severe crimes. I’m worried about the ones who don’t give a rip about a PO or the law or anything else … other than maintaining control over their prey.
You sound a lot more like a victim than I do, but maybe you think that is changing the subject.
We do agree in several places. There are a lot more false allegations of DV in custody cases. But, have you taken the time to think about why people who aren’t married and don’t have any kids might file charges? What motivates that? Do you think single women just get off on going to the courthouse to make false statements? And a lot of the “homeless” women in DV shelters never really had a home at all … instead, they lived with the abuser in his home and never had any ownership interest in the first place. If you think most DV cases are actually Family Law related, you are sadly mistaken.
As for your long bibliography of various “studies” … ok, you win, both sexes assault each other all the time. And both should STOP. Apparently men have not been as good at helping each other as women. Hopefully, you can do something about actually helping male victims. If so, all the best, as long as you don’t try to take away services for women out of spite.
35 survivor // Nov 20, 2009 at 6:03 pm
What do you mean by “a mutually inclusive relationship?”
36 dejure // Nov 20, 2009 at 6:45 pm
We have a group of people who, often arbitrarily, demand, or claim, equality to their sexual counterparts. This same group then goes on to claim to be superior. That is, they claim to be incapable of ill with regard to acts of what is termed domestic violence. Then, in what could only be described as a paradox, they claim to need special treatment, protections and so forth, based on that they are the weaker sex.
This should baffle any reasonable man or woman.
37 jlukas // Nov 20, 2009 at 6:50 pm
You previously stated: ‘However, just because they are all “homeless” does not mean that they are NOT also legitimate DV victims. And I’m sorry, but I just can’t figure out how you think the tax return proves your point. ‘
I disagree that they are all DV victims, which is why I bring those loosely worded questionnaires to the forefront. You disputed that fact earlier, now you agree with it, yet keep looking for other factors to back up your belief system that I’ve been able to show has little or no basis.
I can respect your position concerning true DV, but question why assualt laws aren’t used in these cases. Those type of cases also do not comprise anywhere close to the majority of DV cases and the sentencing laws make very little sense when compared to DV 4 sentences, where a RO may have been broken. I broke mine by simply answering a phone call from my ex at work and spent 30 days in work release for simply picking up the phone. You, on the other hand, are frustrated by light sentences handed out to the dangerous control freaks that exist out there. And that includes women as well.
As for motivation, a woman can come away with the house and money, and use these laws vindictively to ruin a man financially as she gets all of her legal help for free, while the man has to pay for his. Reference the $100,000 paid over the false rape allegations. That was pure hate as she could have cared less about their kid. The father would do anything to help that child and she knew it. The JKH scenario above is very similar and I could share 100′s of cases with you where this happens. I simply bring up family law as one of the most coomon places where this happens.
I had no children, yet it happened to me. Trust me. I am not mistaken about the nature or brutal ways in which these laws are sued as weapons. Even in the recent Hofstra false rape allegations, she was allowed to walk, just like in the Duke case, where both of their excuses for their behaviors were pathetic. Yet, you have the gall to express surprise that this can even happen? Wow……
And thanks for recognizing those studies. I don’t care if I “win”. I just want federal dollars to be spent without regard to race or gender. I have been successful at raising awareness. But, if you would only recognize the insults one must put up with to do so, you would see the ugly, snickering, emasculating side of the gender-feminists. For they violate every one of their mantra’s when challenging me and people like me, including “blaming the victim”. Spite has nothing to do with it, unless you consider the women who challenge me for having the wherewithal for doing so.
38 jlukas // Nov 20, 2009 at 6:53 pm
A mutually inclusive relationship is where neither of the partners thoughts, actions or feelings are minimized. Instead they are considered equally as part of a whole. The whole being the relationship.
39 dejure // Nov 20, 2009 at 7:47 pm
Backing up a bit to the statement regarding individuals in DV programs and the assertion one must be charged and found guilty, I offer the following insight and ground it on my many years in the “business of law,” but do so with the caveat of that it should be noted this list is in no way exhaustive:
ONE – Law does not work the way the public is lead to believe. Nor does it work as codes and such, at first blush, would imply. Examples include, but are not limited to the following: 1) the impartiality of a judge can be altered (improved) simply by that a case is made public, or by whether or not a record of the case with which he/she may not tamper is being built; given the same circumstances, a non-attorney opposed by counsel can do a superior job of presenting a case and lose, while the an attorney would win the same matter.
TWO – Prejudice and ignorant judges or court commissioners are not uncommon. Merely donning a black robe does not make or guarantee one wise on matters of law. Nor does is assure of ethics. Case law and other public records, much not accessible to the public, is replete with incidents of improper acts and omissions of mandatory acts.
THREE – Justice is often a purchased thing. Even pro bono attorneys are in [the] business [of law] and must make money to survive. They can only do so much before their business takes a financial hit from which they may not be able to recover. Public defenders often have too many clients (this can support a claim of ineffective assistance of counsel and aid in obtaining a new trial). As well, appointed counsel is often forced to operate on a pittance of what the prosecutorial authority has at its disposal. The outcome of a case can be influenced by the passion of the legal or other representative.
FOUR – Consistent with the third point, deals are often made that no way reflect true justice. For example, a prosecutor vying for an a public office may risk losing a case on a procedural technicality, possibly created by his/her own office. Subsequently, the prosecutor may desire to avoid the possibility of a spectacle and losing, so may cut a deal. The prosecutor may even trade minor wins in one case for another (yes, it happens, I’ve made such deals).
FIVE – Evidence that could alter the outcome of a case is often excluded from a case. Often, it is the decision of the judge. Other times, it is a product of incompetence of the legal representative (e.g., many attorneys erroneously think the record for appeal is the case file and the pleadings and things filed in it), other times it is because it would require too much effort and the client has no money, or the cost is not otherwise covered.
SIX – Modern science has freed individuals from long prison sentences for crimes they did not commit. Therefore, not all convictions reflect truth.
SEVEN – The arbitrary nature of law can be seen by a review of annotated court rules, such as those produced by West Law. It is not uncommon for a given rule to contain conflicting outcomes.
EIGHT – Law is riddled with presumptions. They may have no grounding in fact and may even operate to counter higher laws (unless challenged). For example, implied consent laws associated with drivers licenses are used to circumvent constitutional protections, such as are found at the Fourth and Fifth amendments to the federal constitution, or Article 1, Sections 7 and 9 of the Washington Constitution. One must rebut the presumption, or it stands as fact.
While presumptions are rebuttable, law always presumes government agents, when opposed by those he/she would serve, is right. This may even apply to quasi government agents and, too often, makes laughable the commonly touted presumption of innocence. In too many realities, one must work very hard to overcome the presumption. The importance of this may mean a responding officer’s statement about something the alleged perpetrator said will be treated as fact.
NINE – Superior Courts rely on administrative records of local, state or federal administrative agencies. If a record was not built countering an agency’s claims, an individual can be right and lose on a technicality.
TEN – A prosecutor’s duty is not merely proving allegations true. Rather, they have a duty to truth and justice. In spite of that fact, there are numerous well documented cases, Supreme and other, of prosecutors obstructing justice by hiding evidence, coaching witnesses, bullying witnesses and so forth.
40 dejure // Nov 20, 2009 at 8:11 pm
If you refuse to compromise, those who might otherwise aid you may destroy you.
KC 09
41 survivor // Nov 20, 2009 at 9:36 pm
John and I totally disagree about the “extent” to which a DV shelter requires evidence of the violence. John thinks that they can just answer yes to one question. Based on my personal experience in a shelter, that is NOT true. We know we don’t have enough beds for the victims who are in immediate danger of being beaten or killed. We don’t want to waste our resources on women who just need a place to sleep. John will believe whatever he wants to believe, but that doesn’t make it accurate. I didn’t change my position. I have always agreed that the women in shelter are homeless. In fact, we work very hard to help them find any place else to stay … a friend, a relative, anywhere. If they are not totally without any option AND they are in immediate danger … we do NOT accept them into the shelter.
I don’t claim that the system works well for either side of the debate. There are way too many cases where the system failed to protect the rights and safety of the true victim.
Women are, in fact, most likely to be in the more vulnerable position. You may not like that truth, but there it is. That doesn’t mean that men are not also victimized and perhaps we are moving in the right direction where men can speak out and expose the reality of female abuse. But why does it have to be either/or? Why can’t male victims and female victims join together to fight the true manipulators, dominators, violent, narcissistic abusive personalities?
I don’t have the answers to that problem.
I agree that most lawyers seem to have lost the sense of their obligation to justice. In fact, most doctors have lost that sense of “social obligation” as well. Otherrwise, we wouldn’t be in this “healthcare crisis.” If we are going to live by the “rule of law” … then it should NOT be based on the ability to pay for an attorney. Sadly, that’s were we are for doctors and lawyers. Very, very, very few women get free legal representation. Living in the middle/lower class sucks!
I don’t care much about which gender deals with “the most” injustice. This isn’t some kind of sport where one side “wins.” I happen to see the women (over and over again on the street every month) who have severe injuries. You see the men who have been abused by the “system.” Neither should happen in a free, just, democratic society.
I wish I had the answers. I don’t. But I know without a doubt that if you look deeply into the relationship, you can see who is really to blame. It really isn’t that hard to figure out who has the power in the relationship. Who is isolating the partner? Who is lying constantly? Who is hyper-jealous? Who is demanding? Who is controlling and demanding? Who has control of the money? Who calls who 1,000 times a day to be sure that the victim is where they are “supposed” to be and doing what the “controller” demands? These questions are not answered by a single incident of assualt (that’s one of the reasons why assault laws designed for men beating each other up in a bar brawl don’t work), these questions are answered by an in depth investigation of the crime that the “system” seems unable to accomplish much too often. Another reason that assualt laws on their own are not sufficient is because the vast majority (male or female) of domestic violence is done without any witnesses and the victims are not likely to cooperate because the “system” cannot protect the true victims. That is exactly why that the “system” has moved to mandatory arrest if there are visible injuries. But if you read theJKH post carefully, you will hear that it was the emotional abuse that was the most difficult for him and the same is true for women.
I do not ever want a man to be falsely accused. I also do not want a woman to be beaten and ignored or blamed for the trauma. I do not want a man to be hurt by a woman and find no support — but I also don’t want that for a woman either.
If anybody can figure out a way to help the “system” get to the truth in these cases, I’m all for it.
I also recognize that some advocates who have not experienced DV have a really hard time recognizing that women can be equally violent, and they are just as trapped in the men vs. women battle as some here. I and my daughter were totally victimized by stronger, more powerful, more violent individuals than us. We had no defense. For advocates to assume that women are much more vulnerable to violence than men is a “common sense” approach. Whether it is accurate is another question.
I don’t care the gender. My best friend’s son is very likely in an abusive relationship. Somehow we have to get beyond the gender crap and focus on justice and safety.
I think that John, and a lot of people, have sadly bought into the men vs. women bullshit. It is about violence vs. non-violence.
42 survivor // Nov 20, 2009 at 9:41 pm
John, if you didn’t have a child with this woman, what happened? Why would she seek such vengence against you?
43 jlukas // Nov 20, 2009 at 10:30 pm
Excuse me?
The men vs. women thing has been going on forever, with women playing the victim card well. We all know the DV laws, and family courts are run by gender-feminist ideology. They portray all women as victims, even in today’s labor arena, where the latest government report stated that women hold 57% of all high paying jobs. There are programs for women all over the place. Name a few for men, willya? I can’t think of any, even though men’s fatalities are much higher than women’s. In addition, breast cancer is only one third of the problem for women that prostate cancer is for men. But prostate cancer just isn’t sexy enough to get those funds. My brother-in-law has a week to live with stomach cancer, the deadliest of all cancers, yet the research dollars just don’t compare to that of breast cancer. Women aren’t as vulnerable as you state.
We need to do more for men in this country. They have become the new minority. Yet, men suck it up, don’t complain and work harder at their “equality”. It’s time for women to “man up” and learn that responsibility goes hand-in-hand with equality. That comes in family decisions, money issues and power and trust.
As for the shelters, you denied the homeless issue, before embracing it during this thread. The Elizabeth Gregory House is supposedly only a “homeless” shelter. Yet 3 1/2 pages of 8 pages of their questionnaire is devoted to DV.
DV had turned into a 6.5 Billion Dollar per year industry. Most of it is driven by gender-feminist ideology that started with the two scorned housewives in Minnesota that started that gender-biased “power and control” wheel. Look in the mirror before you start making statements like that towards me.
I agree that it’s not a gender issue at all. That’s WHY I posted those CLINICAL STUDIES that you at first glance refuted. But, I DO take great offense to something called the Violence Against WOMEN act, then telling me I’ve bought into the gender “crap”.
You state: “But why does it have to be either/or?” I AGREE, wholeheartedly. Those comments should be directed at those in the shelters that you’ve claimed to work for, however. It would be much much better as they totally buy into the men as aggressors, women as victims model.
It takes two to tango. Most lower level DV should require couples to go into counseling. Sadly, that is not the case. You MAY want to ask WHY and look at the history of how the system developed in the manner in which it did. It wasn’t me who started this gender-biased “treatment”.
And, I agree about the emotional abuse, completely. The assualt comments puzzle me, because if you have marks on you, an altercation occurred. There are “must arrest” laws for DV but not assualt? Go figure.
It’s easy to see how false allegations and manipulation of these laws have transpired into a national sport. It gets worse if a man has children with child support, then loses or changes jobs in this economy. The child support laws use DV allegations to further punish men and ruin them financially. If you only knew what comes across my desk on a weekly basis. I feel that experience would truly make an impression. Especially when these laws are supposedly made in “the best interests of the child”, then require no accountability for how the money is spent.
This is a product of the gender-feminists who actually represent very few Americans, yet garner the politically correct attention of “how women should be treated”. I take no responsibility for the current state of affairs.
DeJure said it best with his first post above.
Men actually need women’s help here in changing these archaic laws.
WADVPress
44 jlukas // Nov 20, 2009 at 10:38 pm
Ask her. I honestly believe that she didn’t know what she was doing, sprinkled in with a high dose of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), along with huge trust and commitment issues. She separated from me twice, and divorced me once, yet I still took her back every time she ran out of money. I wasn’t about to shit on her, but wish I had those moves back. To do that to me after I took such good care of her is something I really prefer not to think of anymore as I’ve learned from my mistakes.
45 jlukas // Nov 20, 2009 at 11:08 pm
Survivor:
Here’s a letter I just received tonight.
I am currently going through a divorse with nothing more than accusations of domestic violence from my wife.It is under commisioner Thomas.With no police reports or police phone calls or witnesses of any kind of domestic violence between my wife and I.My wife got a female victums advocate and a female attorney.And the courts are believing every lie and accusation she can come up with.I was the stay at home parent with our 2 year old daughter.With the false accusations first I was given 2 hours a week supervised visitation.Now because of the bias system of thurston county I have not been able to see my daughter for 6 months now. Where’s the justice in that.I had to get a DV evaluation and even though I don’t drink on a regular basis.Because of the lies I have to have a alcohol evaluations.Then after jumping through all the hoops.They are so generous to give me the 2 hours a week supervised visitation back.I just don’t understand this court system at all.What I keep going through don’t seem like it can even be real.That this could actually happen in a supposed to be equal court.Let alone what is happening to me in the divorse because the bias.
Perhaps KL Gates could help here? Maybe they could get the NWWLC to advocate for him?
What would you suggest?
WADVPress
46 survivor // Nov 21, 2009 at 12:35 am
I almost feel the same way about my ex husband. I loved him more than I could ever possibly describe, and society tells me that I was “stupid” to stay with him even when he was hurting me so terribly. I wasn’t “using” the allegations to hurt him. I was protecting him, and hiding it. I wanted to have a “happy family” with him, but it was simply impossible. When we are the victims, they somehow turn the whole thing upside down and make it seem that we are “supposed to” tolerate their insanity. Well, maybe shrinks are prepared for that … but I was NOT … and I don’t think you were either. I also don’t think we should ever have to risk our own personal safety against our will.
So, women/feminism started the game 30 years ago. That wasn’t me, and I’d like to stop it. NOW! That’s my point. I think if you are open-minded, ethically-motivated and you really want the best for everybody … then we will start working together to do what’s ‘RIGHT.’ Truth, safety, justice, and equality is what we all really want, right? It really can’t be that hard to figure out. You don’t want to shield the real criminals any more than I want to shield the fakers.
We’re just human. Human’s compete. Humans lie unless somebody confronts them. Can we figure out a workable way to confront the lies within the “system?” Maybe. But I think if we really want to make a difference, we have to accept that “fixing the system” is not the most effective option. Instead, we should focus on the ones who create the havoc in the first place — go after the root of the problem — the “real” perps — long before anybody has to call 911. SAFE peer pressure first with a zero violence policy , and if that’s not enough — then very severe risk of separation from everything and everybody if you simply cannot control your behavior and refrain from violence. If real people didn’t end up raped/beaten/dead, we wouldn’t have to be paranoid — we wouldn’t need shelters — the world would basically be a much nicer place. Simplistic concept, I know, but my dad was a Georgia Tech mechanical engineer and he always said that simple was beautiful.
Just think. If we paid family law attorneys what we pay teachers, and if we paid teachers what we pay divorce lawyers … that would help, too.
I will always remember your point of view (even if I don’t necessarily agree) and remind everybody that the “system” is basically broken in both directions. Some women are legitimate victims of horrific violence and they should be believed and supported. Some men are victimized by manipulative, narcissistic women, and those women should be helt accountable.
Truth Under Oath. Without it, there is no Rule of Law. If we all joined together toward that goal, then the truly guilty would be held accountable, the innocent would be protected, and best of all — the interests of the children would be put FIRST by everybody involved.
You seem to think that a relationship can be salvaged after violence. I do not. And, frankly, I’m surprised after reading your story that you would believe that yourself. If you do believe it, then I suspect you have never really been assaulted.
47 Joseph, Antole // Nov 21, 2009 at 9:12 am
Survivor, WOW, is this person for real? You the Victim? WOW, do whats best for the children? I served my Country for 15 months, watched my Soldier, friend get shot in the face; came back home to find out I raped my wife and beat her. Nothing to prove it but her. I lost my children for over 6 months while in the states and not to count the seven months in Iraq before i came home. I was a man and a Soldier and that’s why i was not believed. Back to best interest of the children; I guess my 2 year old and 6 year old and my ex-wife sleeping in a car is the best interest for them too right? How about them getting beat by their mother while i was gone out of state for 3 weeks and she said i did and the courts believed her. That’s in the best interest of the children too right? I will not lie i read just a little and to hear you whine and cry makes me sick. Us men regardless what we do, say, or act like we are guilty. End of story. While women use the system to get ahead and make themselves look like the victim. Perjury after perjury that she proved to the courts for me!!!! Guess what happened? Nothing, she has a slit between her legs and cried rape that never happened. BIOS is what it is. I had all the proof that they were false clams but the courts didn’t care till it happened to another guy. You say you stayed because you love him and wanted a family is the biggest crock of shit i ever heard. You stayed because nothing happened. The sad thing is this; women don’t have to answer yes or no, they just cry, whine, and act scared to get what they want or just spread their legs to another to take their side which i seen with my own eyes too. You wanted a happy family you would have got out before it even went as for as you JUST claimed it did. I think you made this all up just to feel special. I will tell you this survivor which should be called liar. I am a man and I have sole custody of my kids; the courts had know choice any more seen the proof was getting too thick for them to cover it up any more and blame me for her actions. This i think will happen to you soon enough but i could be wrong seen i only read the last post you sent and to tell you the truth, you sound smarter than my ex but the story is the same. Give me something!!!!! What you got?
48 Joseph, Antole // Nov 21, 2009 at 9:19 am
I did a one year DV treatment in 10 months, which the director of the treatment place can do, do to certain situation IAW WA State Law but the judge made the law up for herself, even though I filed the law in black and white in the RCW and guess what??? Yea, i did it all over again. CRY me a big river would you???
49 Joseph, Antole // Nov 21, 2009 at 9:25 am
Survivor, I will wait for you to reply to me, Joseph James Antole. I will not waste my time to read your victim story so I said enough to get the ball rolling. Wouldn’t you say, Victim?
50 survivor // Nov 21, 2009 at 11:05 am
Joseph, how on earth would being a DV survivor make anybody feel “special?” Talk about twisted. Why should I believe you when you refuse to believe me? If you were innocent, then I’m glad you finally got custody. If you were guilty, then I can only hope that the children will be safe. I was abused and threatened with a gun over 25 years ago. I have absolutely no contact with my ex-husband and no reason to lie. He lives in another state and is probably brutalizing his third wife. I didn’t say anything about the abuse for over 20 years until another man hurt my 20 year old daughter so badly that she needed emergency surgery. THAT was when I started to talk about what happened to me because it is, in fact, happening to people (men and women) all the time.
If all women who claim to be abused are liars, why do about 30 or so end up dead every year in WA State alone? How do the women that I have worked with at Harborview with severe injuries “faked it?” You might have to actually read my posts to figure out how I come in contact with victims.
I am sorry for your trauma, and thankful for your service. But I don’t see why you have to call me a liar just because your wife was one.
John — I would certainly need to know more about the person who wrote the letter you posted. Every abuser denies it. In fact, most of them believe it was somehow the victim’s “fault.” I don’t believe every victim’s story without evidence — do you believe that everybody is falsely accused just because they say so?
Is “cry me a river” some kind of motto for you guys? BTW, the posts from men here seem to sound a lot more like victims than mine. In fact, some posts sound like all men are victims. But I won’t be shut down by somebody spitting “victim” at me. I didn’t deserve it. I am successful and safe. I try to help others who have been traumatized — male or female.
Joseph, I hope you will be careful about how you talk about your children’s mother. I didn’t tell my daughter what her father did to me. She began to see him for what he was when she was about 13 because he was abusing his second wife (her step-mom). Some try to say that it was his fault that our daughter was “set up” to connect love and violence (he had standard visitation with our daughter) and that’s why she was also abused. I reject that logic. I don’t blame anybody for the abuse other than the person who is committing the crimes.
IMHO, it is best to let the children grow up and make their own decisions rather than trying to turn them against either parent when they are little. They do grow up, and then they can see the truth for themselves. Always remember that.
51 jlukas // Nov 21, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Right on, Survivor. I have been the victim of emotional and physical violence, for 18 1/2 years and tolerated much of it as I took personal responsibility for her behaviors. Gender has nothing to do with it. And neither does feminism. It’s the gender-feminists that incur my wrath as they have mucked things up royally.
Trust me. I have learned the hard way from my mistakes and take full accountability for them. For that reason, I doubt that as a quality man, I will ever seek a meaningful relationship again. It’s just not worth it to me.
I disagree with going after one before calling 911 as that would be a constitutional violation. We need less of that and more verification and proof of those allegations. I find it curious in today’s technology that hidden cameras and recording devices aren’t used more often. A-G-A-I-N, it’s the system that accepts hearsay. The system should provide an accountable, trustworthy process, especially against repeat offenders. First time offenders should both (couples) go to counseling as it takes two to fight.
Your truth under oath is one of the most valid points brought forth here, as most statement are taken, but not under oath. That is how due process is skirted. That is how the law operates.
And yes, I continued to try and set the example for our relationship and that was my major mistake. DV classes instead accused me of “blaming the victim”, when in effect, I was blaming myself. This “counselor” is now under review by the DOH with 6 complaints lined up behind his name. He is done as he has ruined others lives, not just mine.
I personally thank you for hearing me out. Civil rights require proof before convicting anybody of any crime. That need to be fixed, along with false and misleading information. What would you tell that men, who’s letter that I posted above. You actually have the unique opportunity to approach KL Gates for their support through the NWWLC for their support in this matter. It is my feeling that you may be fired for doing so, however, as it is against their gender-feminist ideology. That is the brutality that men are up against.
52 jlukas // Nov 21, 2009 at 12:35 pm
“If all women who claim to be abused are liars, why do about 30 or so end up dead every year in WA State alone?”
These are just a few articles where women have killed, but have not been added to the statistics, all of them in WA. One is a prostitute, a serial liar, and the others, I’ll let you make up your mind for yourself. The point being is that these statistics are ignorant of men dying, then they treat ALL women as “perpetrator victims”, no matter what.
Woman Kills Man, Gets Pass
http://wadvpress.org/?p=47
ANOTHER Woman Kills Man – Gets Pass
http://wadvpress.org/?p=106
Lacey Woman Hides Pregnancy From Husband, Kills Baby
http://wadvpress.org/?p=60
53 survivor // Nov 21, 2009 at 4:55 pm
I want to make clear that when I said go after them before 911, I meant that “society as a whole” should condemn this behaviour LOUDLY and ACTIVELY — both in groups and as individuals. Nobody should EVER be able to “brag” about hurting anybody. If they tried, every decent listener should say SHAME ON YOU and if it is criminal — they should be willing to cooperate in the prosecution. Now, that would be drastic “social change” consisdering how much we value violence in so many ways, on so many levels.
Of course, I think society should have the same reaction to anybody who lies under oath … or just lies in general. SHAME ON THEM, too!
If an adult wants to leave a relationship, they should not be “forced” into reconciliation or any attempt at reconciliation/counselling. I was actually in “counselling” with a preacher when my ex described how he would kill me, and then kill himself, if I left him. I don’t agree that it takes two to fight, but it only takes one to leave … unless the other partner feels some “right of ownership” over their partner and insists on maintaining intimidating contact.
Parents have significant “rights” to their children, and I think it should be extremely difficult for the courts to restrict custody/visitation. But when it comes to one adult simply wanting the other adult to “leave them alone” (the purpose of a restraining order) … I don’t see why the respondent can’t simply do that … unless they are seeking revenge. If it hadn’t been so scary, I would have laughed when Lindsey’s abuser put in his “affidavit” that it was a violation of his Constitutional rights not to go in the one grocery store where my dauaghter worked.
Back to the two to fight concept: I never raised a hand. I would never think to fight or even fight back. I curled up in fetal position, or I got on my knees and begged him …
You have a faulty believe that a “couple” can recover from violence. I will never believe that. It only “works” when the victim of the violence totally capitulates to the captor.
54 jlukas // Nov 21, 2009 at 5:40 pm
You make a lot of assumptions. In MOST cases, it takes two to fight, especially when emotional abuse is involved. Most of my references are made towards DV4′s as both you and I recognize them to comprise most of the DV that happens out there. As far as violence and recovery, there are so many types and degrees of violence that range from a woman slapping a man on upwards. But, you cling to your experiences as the norm, when they are not in degree of severity, as I have shown you that through my homework and speaking from the heart.
Banning ALL violence, as you suggested is a pie-in-the-sky dream. Would you ban foorball, a violent sport? Where does one draw that line, especially when the constitution is involved? I think you need a good dose of reality, stop being a victim, and learn how to move on and actually control your life, rather than letting it control you.
As far as your ex, I believe he was violent. But, I also believe that he didn’t hit you for no reason at all. Now, please don’t go off the deep end and take that the wrong way. I’m not saying you deserved ANY of that, but only wish to show that it does take two, no matter where the blame lies.
Your suggestions scare me and concern me. We already have the highest per capita of our population in prison, and those suggestion would only make it worse, and it doesn’t address false allegations, which continues to be the problem.
Also, you ignored that letter from somebody seeking help that I posted last night at 11:08 PM. It was very real and showed exactly what goes on. You continue to ignore the fact that KL Gates and the NWWLC could help men, but choose not to. You speak some pretty good politically correct lines, but don’t back them up with action. You work there. You could make an appeal on their behalf. I posted my e-mail address so that I could connect the man in need with a possible advocate that could help him,.
All for naught. The truth is that you don’t believe in advocacy for men. And that’s sad. Despite what you claim.
WADVPress
55 survivor // Nov 21, 2009 at 7:32 pm
I don’t have any personal contacts at NWWLC, but I would recommend that he contact the Seattle Police Victim Support Team. They might be able to help open some doors for him. As you might imagine, I keep my volunteer work separated from my career. In fact, other than one attorney who participates in the King County Bar Ass’n Recission Squad, I don’t know of anybody at K&L who is directly involved in pro bono DV cases.
I don’t think the Constitution protects violence. Come on, dude? Even the notion of self-defense merely acknowledges that there will be a violent criminal that you need to defend yourself against.
That football thing was really pitiful. Actually made me LOL. Our children are beating each other to death, shooting each other at school, “adults” are pounding on each other in their own homes, children sold being into prostitution by their own mothers. The fact that you don’t want to support non-violence tells me a lot about you.
I guess I am guilty of “competition.” I do believe that physical injuries are worse than the population you defend — unjustly accused husbands getting hosed in divorce court. So, you keep up your work with those guys, and I’ll keep working with people who have — in fact — been shoved out of moving cars, burned with cigs (why is that so popular do you think?), beaten with fists or objects, thrown through windows, etc. While “most” DV may be “nothing” in your opinion — when it is serious it is very often lethal.
BTW, the fatility statistics are not just women or inflated. I believe in 2008 there were about 1/3 male victims — although a good chunk of those men were either trying to defend the victim, or were new “boyfriends.”
Seems to me you could take your own advice about “moving on.” You are certainly as obsessed with your victimization as I am with mine — just look at the effort it takes to run this website! And you seem to judge everything based on your own experience as well.
56 jlukas // Nov 21, 2009 at 8:17 pm
Thanks for the recommendation, but my experience with these folks are that they’ve already been indoctrinated by the gender-f”s. But, I’ll try.
As for the violence, I don’t think you or me would be successful in changing human nature. It is what it is. The football comment was meant to be a joke. As for the rest, good also happens. It just doesn’t get the press it deserves. The media inundates us with shock value stories that personally turn me off. That’s why I don’t give it the credence you do. I simply don’t think its that deserving of my attention as I don’t believe its anywhere near as bad as you just made it sound. Like I said, good happens, too.
What concerns me most is the utter imbalance of women’s violence and how it is played up. Take Rihanna, for instance. She beat Chris Brown with her high heels in a fit of jealous rage as he was driving and she’s the victim? Puh-lease. They’re both at fault. It takes two and that’s exactly what happened there. But the media is hellbent on political correctness more so than printing the truth, that she got a pass as many women do.
That’s how bad it’s gotten. The Hofstra rape accusations, the Duke LaCrosse team, and all of the false accusations with no repercussions for doing so. What kind of message does that send? If you’re a woman, you know what you can do and get away with it. If you’re a man, you’re screwed even if you’re innocent.
Men are under attack more than women when you consider those facts. Did you know that women’s DV fatalities are not considered when they kill their children? That’s right. If they kill somebody under the age of 12 (mostly their children), it is not counted as a DV crime, but is counted as a female homicide. And women are much more likely to kill their children than men.
But, I digress as I could go on all night long about the imbalance that women enjoy in terms of legal aid, financial assistance, statistics, and many other types of gender bias, all at the expense of men.
This has been good therapy for me as I have been highly successful in raising awareness, some of which has resulted in lost funding for those who have given themselves a bad name. I practice a non-violent means of protest AND education that has been most gratifying.
It’s a hard, uphill battle as you can see. It’s not for the weak of heart. But change IS needed. Because if you think about it, its not my bad behavior that created this mess. They actually make my job easy. Read the articles and you will see what I mean.
Meanwhile, I judge each and every incident based upon the FACTS, which is why I fact check everything that is printed on this website. That’s the way it should be.
57 Joseph, Antole // Nov 22, 2009 at 8:24 am
I am sorry for what you went through and for you to wait 20 years seems odd. My kids cry when they have to go to their moms and I can’t do nothing about it because of people like you who paint a picture for woman that are lying and help them further their lies. I said what I had to and if he was hurting his own daughter and you allowed it to happen you should feel bad too. If he is that bad why is he still married and not in jail????
58 survivor // Nov 22, 2009 at 9:51 am
I don’t base my work on surveys, clinical studies and newspaper clippings. I work with real people in real hospitals facing real criminals who believe that they have a “right” to hit, burn, strangle, and terrorize their partners. If there were only 1 beaten woman or child for every 1000 men who have suffered like you, I will still fight to my dying breath for their safety. You seem well fitted to help the poor men out there who have been abused by the “system.”
We totally and completely agree about perjury, but I’d bet that if most of the men in DV treatment were held to that standard — you would be very disappointed in how often you’ve believed their “version” of the truth.
People lie. Both sexes. People are violent. Both sexes. I will do my best to expose both. If you are willing to care about those who are, in fact, beaten and bruised (even if they are women), then maybe we’ve both learned something.
BTW, you keep saying that you will never have another relationship … and based on your writing here … I can’t imagine why any woman would ever want to get near you. I also will never trust a man again. Although, men still seem to work very hard to try and change my mind about that. So, maybe we’re similiar in that way, as well.
BTW, how did you fact check the letter you posted?
59 survivor // Nov 22, 2009 at 10:04 am
Joseph, there you go again. You don’t think it wasn’t his fault … oh no, it was MY fault because I didn’t protect her. Well, I think it WAS all HIS FAULT. But, I didn’t know about it until she was an adult. And she doesn’t want to put her father in jail … it would, afterall, require her testimony. I didn’t want to send her father to jail either … call me stupid. I wasn’t living with him, you know. I ran away from him when she was a baby. He was hurting her during his “court ordered” visitation.
And a LOT of women out there have been abused and NEVER said a word about it. In fact, when I hear a woman talking about it to anybody and everybody … I ask myself if it was real. It isn’t that hard to figure out. A few questions about her life and it will be clear. The fact that most people, especially in the “system,” are not well educated about narcissism, domination, intimidation, manipulation … and violence … is the problem. If they understood it, then they could recognize it no matter whether it was a man or a woman.
I’m sorry your kids are afraid of their mother. But, do you have any idea how many children are afraid to go visit their fathers?
You all seem to hate women, and that’s about it. Well, good luck with that. I hate violence, abuse and liars … and I don’t give a damn what they’ve got between their legs.
60 survivor // Nov 22, 2009 at 10:11 am
BTW, he’s on his third marriage because he is a skillful liar who seems charming and “perfect” until he decides that he owns you. It’s a common trait among narcissists. Even if I could have talked to his newest wife … even if his daughter and his second wife and taken her aside to warn her … she wouldn’t have believed us either. Sadly, I’m sure she’s learning it all by herself. Hopefully, somebody, somewhere will help her when she tries to get away from him.
61 jlukas // Nov 22, 2009 at 11:33 am
My e-mail is listed all over this website. They contact me, and I fact check their story by calling them. I go to bat for nobody before I fact check their story and talking directly with them. I check court records, call Jennifer Lord and know of the severe bias in Thurston County where Judge Casey is one of the worst rated judges in this state. The stories i could tell you about her.
How do you “fact check” your stories? Do you interview the accused? Most don’t. Yet, you realize how people lie. If somebody lies to me, I have the ability to make life difficult for them by talking to the prosecution, which i have also done. Do you do that? What do you do when you catch somebody in a lie? Give them a slap on the wrist, despite the fact of what you have said above?
I play hardball with liars. I’ll bet you don’t.
62 survivor // Nov 22, 2009 at 11:47 am
I’ve personally seen women made to leave the shelter when we discovered they were lying, I don’t call that a slap on the wrist since she was probably going to go out to work the streets to feed herself (or even if it was to feed her habit). I bet you have no compassion for drug addicts, either. I still wonder whether you mother was abused … or if she abandoned you. Sounds to me like your hatred toward women goes back farther than 20 years. I do sometimes see the accused’s record of repeated offenses … does that count? If you think you can tell whether somebody is lying based on a phone call … you should work for the CIA.
63 jlukas // Nov 22, 2009 at 12:18 pm
How dare you. My mother is a saint. I’m my Mother’s primary caretaker as her husband passed away in 2005. She just had a heart attack last week. My brother-in-law lays on his death bed with stage IV stomach cancer, and you have the gall to call me a woman hater? My despise for gender-feminists began in 2005, when my ex stuck it to me. Not all women are gender f’s.
You leave my mother out of this. You aren’t deserving of her presence and never will be. This type of emotional abuse is exactly what I’m referring to when I quote the study that women perpetrate 70% of domestic violence. You think you have the right to comment about my mother without repercussion, then claim foul when somebody like your ex gets the desire to strike you? I’m beginning to understand the dynamic of your past relationship now. I suppose you put a little halo on after making that comment.
Shame on you.
I’ll refrain from personal attacks on you and let you continue to expose yourself and methods of operation. Yup, you’re some pacifist all right.
My mother was not abused and I have helped my favorite street people, mostly when I lived in SF.
As I thought, you do not report liars and those who file false reports to the police as you should. Yep. That’s some screening process you have going on there. They simply leave the shelter and go lie to somebody else, don’t they? Also, the liars I report are men.
Meanwhile, your attempts at goading me into some sort of inappropriate behavior is pathetic and tantamount to how women like you operate. Goad, and push buttons until you obtain your desired result. That’s WHY I say DV is anything a woman desired it to be. Thanks for showing us how that works!
64 Joseph, Antole // Nov 22, 2009 at 12:40 pm
I never said you stupid. You don’t want him in jail???? WOW, the way you talk about how bad he is and how you care for woman that get abused but you do nothing to him for the sake of your daughter and you ran and left her??? You a selfish woman and need some real help. You talk about terms used by only doctors with a PHD should use. You have one?
65 Snoco Sum Biatch // Nov 22, 2009 at 3:47 pm
Survivor, did your mother teach you to be a bitch? Or, did you learn it on your own and she doesn’t deserve to be in this discussion?
Pretty obvious, your husband was a physical abuser. Shame on him.
But you, you were an emotional abuser – shame on you.
You are the victim, he is the stupid participant with a controlling bitch.
It’s obvious why you keep your volunteering work out of the office – - – - – The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.
JOHN- Keep up the good work – it’s pulling the kooks out of their cages. I’m sure your mother is a Saint. I don’t think Survivor meant anything by her statement, she just can’t help being a bitch.
66 survivor // Nov 22, 2009 at 6:24 pm
A lot of abuse victims are, in fact, absolute saints. They often tolerate a ton of trauma because the church tells them they are suposed to, or because they don’t want to abandon their children, etc. Asking of somebody has suffered abuse is not a crticism in my world — it is a legitimate question. If John had watched his mother get hurt, or if he had been hurt or abandoned, it might help me better understand his rage. I find it (and other posts) curious. I did NOT intend to insult his mother — in fact, I would never insult any violence victim. My apologies.
67 The JKH // Nov 22, 2009 at 8:21 pm
You mentioned to me on how I kept her violence a secret? NO, NO, NO! I told he police, I let her family see it I got her to do it in public trying to get someone else to call the cops. Finally one day we are at the gas station, I let her know I was spending the last of my money on gas to get to work. she blows up and throws a fit cause she wants to buy a bunch of junk food to take to a party Im not even going to. She didnt work, I busted my ass 12-16 hrs a day making good money, but it was never enough to keep up with her spending. I had allready tried calling the cops only to be laughed at so I figure Ill let someone else do it. The police show up, I have the windows up and the doors locked and she’s beating on my car with what ever she can get her hands on, The cop threatens me to get her out of there and calm her down or he’ll have to arrest me!!
68 Antole83 // Nov 23, 2009 at 1:27 am
Here’s the thing that I have a hard time with. I’ve been in an abusive relationship before…or what had the potential to be abusive had I stuck around to find out- but the difference is, once the other party put their hands on me with no other goal than to instill fear in me…I grabbed my son and got the hell out of dodge and haven’t looked back since. I didn’t care if they were in treatment or court ordered to do anything. I didn’t care whether I was ‘vindicated’ in some way cause once I took off- I made sure that I severed ties and got on with my life. If a person is truly scared for their life…they will do everything in their power to FORGET that person and avoid all thoughts and reminders of the situation.
I’m not saying its that easy for everyone but you can’t escape the natural law of choice and accountability. I entered into the relationship and once I needed to leave (rather than become a victim of the circumstance) I left. Granted I took steps after I left to protect myself if I needed (aka concealed pistol license). But I got up, dusted myself off and took on the responsibility of taking care of myself.
I also separate the relationship between he and I with that of his son. I want my son to think his dad is superman, even if my opinion is different. And the idea that someone who gets physical with their spouse will also get physical with the children is a touchy one. Spouses and passionate relationships between men and women can bring out anger and betrayal that most other connections can’t…now if I ever suspected true abuse to my son, of course I’d stop at nothing to protect him, but that is the exception and not the rule. Once the divorce was final…I followed the court order and kept my eyes open- but I encouraged my son to think of his daddy as his hero. Every little kid deserves that.
We’re kidding ourselves to imply that these situations are black and white- good vs. evil kinds of things. Yes, there are some major abusers out there…but they don’t sit in wait among one gender or another. I’ve known ridiculously abusive women that exploit the men in their lives just to appear to be a victim…its as rampant as the STD’s those women bring home to their men….and I’m a FIRM believer that if you are willing to step up and hit like a man, or throw something at your man- be prepared to get hit back…or pushed or whatever. You throw a punch, be prepared to take one. You don’t have the right to hit him anymore than he has the right to hit you.
To answer your question though John…Bill Nortafrancisco in Lakewood WA runs a really good program- because its not about “abusers” or “batterers” there- its about insight. He teaches a person how to have insight into their own actions AND understand the actions of others. He’s fully aware that there are many so called “perpatrators” in his classroom that are simply victims of the system itself…but he is still able to offer the valuable skill of finding insight into your own thoughts and actions- and helps people recognize that NOT everyone thinks the same way they do…we all perceive and communicate differently and in this day and age, its important to know WHY you say or do things because you may just have to defend yourself someday.
Just thought I’d add my two cents. Hope you are well. =)
69 survivor // Nov 23, 2009 at 8:29 am
Antole — I ran, too. But I believe I was lucky to have the resources to do that. Losts of victims don’t have a car or money — most have been totally isolated from their friends/family. Some take their “church vows” very seriously, etc. I also kept quiet about my ex-husband’s abuse because I wanted my daughter to have the chance to love her father. I didn’t think he would hurt her … but I was wrong about that, too. He has hurt anybody and everybody who gets close to him.
I also condemn all abuse/vioence no matter what gender.
Glad to hear that there might be a good DV perp treatment program somewhere. Most of what I hear about them from both sides of the debate is dismal.
70 jlukas // Nov 23, 2009 at 11:11 am
Thanks for the referral, Joe. THAT is the first good comment that I’ve heard concerning a good DV treatment provider. I’m still looking for referrals in the Seattle area. As per usual, two more bad providers popped up on my radar over this past weekend.
Survivor, I have nothing left to say to you.
71 survivor // Nov 23, 2009 at 12:18 pm
John, I didn’t think you would accept my apology.
Oh well, I guess you got tired of dealing with somebody who doesn’t want to play the male vs. female game. I can see how it would take a lot of the wind out of your sails.
72 The JKH // Nov 23, 2009 at 3:50 pm
I hope there are some good programs out there.
So, anyway, heres some info for you John. Jennifer wieler, or Lord or whatever was the prosecutor on my trial today!! I was kinda suprized but very glad that a future suit wouldnt be clouded when there where several prosecutors involved. We went thru some evidence admits, some rulings I liked more then others but I can deal with any of it
After that the Judge noted his concerns for mr Lords cough, she had a nasty raspy cough, and even though we all wanted to go thru with the trial today he extended it, yet again 
New trial is on January 4th, confirmation is Dec 30th.
this is after I spent another $200 to get there, like I have so many times allready. It doesnt sound like a lot but coupled with the fact noone wants to hire someone thats going to trial and I dont think its fair to lie in a interveiw and the fact that this has been going on for almost a year, Im flat broke.
Luckily I have a awesome fiancee who is willing to spend every dime we can get our hands on to get my son, awesome friends sorrunding us, a good church to give us unspiration and a strong family backing us up Im doing OK, just wanting it to be over allready.
73 jlukas // Nov 23, 2009 at 6:11 pm
JKH, I can’t believe your case is still ongoing. I owe Ms. Lord another phone call. Is she still on your case? I caution you not to talk about it online however, as they are constantly monitoring this site in their defense.
I’ll call you soon about this.
74 Antole83 // Nov 23, 2009 at 7:00 pm
John- the referral to Bill came from Jen not Joe =) I know its easy to confuse us. It seems like there’s this idea that once a man or woman crosses the line, they should be ostracized from society, and exiled out into the world of “DV Treatment” I really don’t think that is the case…most treatment center’s are about making money- because that is the American way…they recommend psych evals (that they offer of course) they recomend expensive counseling (at their facility of course) and they recommend unrealistic safety plans that often leave the so called ‘abuser’ stripped of all rights…but I will say I’ve been impressed with Bill’s work with the people I’ve known who have attended there and there are some places in the world that still care about the human and the issue and not the dollar or DV Shelter funding.
Survivor- this is going to sound brutal from a woman…but if she ended up isolated and without a car- then she was aware of the control WAY before the abuse started…I’m not saying its her FAULT but I do think that we train the people around us how to treat us- and women who ALLOW a man to force them to “obey” either by financial persuasion or threats are already walking into a situation where they are surrendering their independence. Granted the ABUSE is an awful thing and everyone should be able to trust their spouse- but being naieve is no excuse in my mind…women should always be prepared to be independent of a man, or at least fake it for a few months if they have to.
75 jlukas // Nov 23, 2009 at 7:36 pm
My, bad, Jen. I see that name and forget to check to IP. Either way, it’s a great recommendation from a trusted source, which is highly appreciated here.
76 survivor // Nov 23, 2009 at 11:18 pm
Jen, I don’t think it sounds brutal — in fact, it is a message I try to give women all the time. Everyone should be self-sufficient and make sure that their relationships (all of their relationships) are mutually valuable and independently sustainable. But it’s a damn fine line between supporting self-sufficiency and blaming the victim. I want to help everyone see the signs of domination and isolation and terror, because then there won’t be quite so much confusion. I think it’s a lot like the smell of death. Once you’ve smelled it, you will always know it.
BTW, I don’t think that just because somebody can’t work (for whatever reason) that means that their partner should be able to get away with treating them like a caged animal. In fact, I don’t care how bad anybody’s decisions may be (gang members, addicts, homeless, prostitutes, etc.) nobody “deserves” to be attacked. I always hold the people doing the violence responsible for the volence — unless it is truly self-defense or to protect another and in those situations there should not be a history of control. It should be an immediate, unexpected response to an uncommon event.
All abusers cannot be thrown into one pile any more than all victims — and if you add all the lies from both sides in addition to the PRIVATE nature of the crimes — it’s no wonder we haven’t figured out how to stop it. We’ve made some progress over violence in general over the centuries — if you don’t count war. There are hardly any public lynchings anymore, and “cowboy heros” don’t walk down the middle of the street shooting up the town … instead 15 year-olds have automatic weapons or just beat each other to death and some narcissists are murdering, torturing and abusing our fellow citizens behind closed doors. Maybe if more of the true trauma victims could shed their shame (men and women) — after all the danger has past and there is nothing left to risk — no reason to seek vengence — to simply tell the truth. Maybe good-hearted people would hear those stories and say, “Come to think of it … maybe it really could be just that simple, maybe, just maybe, physical violence is ALWAYS wrong.” Then we wouldn’t waste so much time on statistics or who’s the worst, or which way the scales of justice are out of balance. All adults can and “should” walk away. No excuses. No need for restraining orders. No sandbox crap like “he made me do it,” or “it takes two” or “I warned her …”
Business partnerships break up all the time without any violence. It’s obviously possible to resolve conflicts without it. But almost everybody here thinks that I am “unrealistic.” Perhaps, they’re right … but, if so, wouldn’t that be depressing? They truly believe that physcial assault is somehow inevitable “human nature.” What a lame excuse is THAT??
I disagree with that assumption completely. I may not live to see a society that has learned to live together without physical violence because of social/ethical reasons (simple right and wrong) rather than legal/political “failed systems enforcement,” but I will die believing in it. One day, we will stop hurting each other because we ALL decide to call it what it is — UNACCEPTABLE. We will ridicule and exile abusive personalities instead of covering up their crimes. We did it with smoking — almost. We sure changed behavior about drunk driving. I will always believe that non-violence is possible. Call me a dreamer … or tree hugger if you like … I can take it.
77 jlukas // Nov 24, 2009 at 9:14 am
Survivor:
You just admitted to BEING part of the problem. And, as we can all see about your comments about my mother, your “admission” goes much further than you’re willing to admit here. I don’t believe you’re a “victim” anymore, but a professional victim, one who is paid as a hit woman for a lawfirm. paid to enforce her morals on other men as her legal “punishment”.
You admit the system doesn’t work, yet continue to let ANY excuse pass for a reason for it’s existence. I’ve already let you know of my solutions, so don’t bob and weave here.
I won’t call you a dreamer. You’re just a narcissistic delusional woman who blames all of society’s woes on men.
78 survivor // Nov 24, 2009 at 5:12 pm
I appologized about the reference to your mother, but only gentlemen can graciously accept an apology. BTW, narcissists never apologize for anything because nothing is ever their fault. Now that sounds a lot more like you than me.
I was trying to figure out whether your hurt/rage goes deeper than a divorce. Childhood trauma would be a likely source behind your kind of intensity on this topic. I tried to explain that I do not consider it an insult to ask if a woman was abused. If you experienced violence or abandonment as a child it would help to explain your passion or obsession (call it what you like) in this blog.
I have NEVER blamed societies woes on men. I have been clear from the beginning that I won’t play the men vs. women game. YOU don’t know what to do with that so you resort to calling me names. I am not narcissistic. I might be delusional to hope for a world where people do not assault one another — especially in their own bedrooms — but I am certainly not narcissistic.
You don’t have any solutions other than scream about how unfairly men are treated. Maybe you are. Welcome to reality. Look around the world or look back in history and you’d have a hard time trying to tell me that women don’t understand oppression better than men. But whatever. You don’t really want to build shelters for men. You don’t really want male victims to talk about it. You would rather the whole idea be fake so that you can keep feeling sorry for yourself. Talk about pitiful. You lost a lot of money — I’m really sorry — but at least you’re alive.
Go read the WSCADV Fatality Review. I looked at your “clinical studies” — so I dare you to go and actually read the names and the descriptions on the Fatality Review. Do you need the link?? Then come back and tell me that it’s just a bunch of lies made up by women who want to be perma-victims.
I think I piss you off because I won’t play your game and blame “men” for anything. But I do blame violent criminals for the damage they do.
And I thought you weren’t talking to me anymore? What happened?
79 jlukas // Nov 25, 2009 at 11:06 am
Your apology fell woefully short, replete with analogies of how “saints” are often victims, too.
There was as much abuse in that apology as there was in your original statement. Now, what was that you had to say about narcissism?
Here’s another question for you? What do the woman’s advocates say? There is no excuse for abuse.
Do you believe in that?
Case in point. You heap on the abuse as a “victim” in here, then blame the “man” (me) for your issues. I also believe there is no excuse for abuse. That’s why I took some time to cool off after that most inappropriate of responses. That, and my brother-in-law passed away on Monday.
Go ahead and refer to me not being a “gentleman” is you wish. Analyze me all you want. First and foremost, I am a man. A free man. Free from oppression like the type you show in here. I subscribe to no gender-biased reasoning and realize that despite whatever statistics or examples that you throw up there, no woman will be accused of domestic violence as what happened on Monday when a woman killed for the second time in Bellevue.
When those incidents are recorded, and the activists and advocates view the crime without the bias you show in here, it is only then that I will listen.
You had something to do with your “situation” and it clearly showed through. You expect your “apology” to suffice, yet want more for men who may act as inappropriately as that.
That is on you, not me.
80 Antole83 // Nov 25, 2009 at 2:25 pm
I hate to burst anyone’s bubble, but violence IS a part of human nature. As is the “fight or flight” adrenaline rush that happens when one feels threatened WITH violence. Self discipline is a learned behavior that goes against human nature, that is why children who are not disciplined end up having so many problems in adulthood. I’m not excusing violence against a partner or child by any means, but get real here- it is an inherent part of being human to feel anger or fear and react.
The problem with advocacy programs is that there is a very fine line between protecting and enabling a victim. Perpetual victims, the ones who don’t want to help themselves and claim that ‘this is unfair…or that is unfair…or why should I have to leave my house or my job…blah blah blah’ and even those demanding punishment for their abusers are in for a rude awakening when they get into the real world. Life is not fair, sometimes people hurt, betray and backstab you- thats what happens and it isn’t going to change just because one of them went through a treatment program. Ideal situations don’t exist and the faster a victim learns that…the less time they spend being a victim. Advocates generally encourage a shift of power and control from one spouse to another. And a victim with total control over her abuser cannot be objective…the cycle starts all over again in reverse.
If its bad enough to need an advocate- then its bad enough to leave the state and disappear from the abusers life. People do it all of the time.
81 Antole83 // Nov 25, 2009 at 2:39 pm
By the way- I’m a woman and John doesn’t hate me, in fact he actually likes me…and his mother would walk through fire for him.
That was actually a very twisted bit of phsychological and mental abuse right there Survivor- I would imagine that if a man told a woman that her father abandoned her and that is why she ‘hates’ men…and an advocate caught wind of it from the woman- they’d see it as psychological abuse from the man for trying to isolate her from her family and make her feel unloved and unwanted. Abusers often apologize after harming their victims too…and THEN it seems as though you GUILT trip him for not accepting the apology…its classic behavior for the abuser/victim cycle.
See how quickly things can get twisted around? See how easy it is to exaggerate one little sentense…or heaven forbid a ‘grab’ or ‘gesture’ and turn it into something so extreme as ‘abuse’. That is what we are fighting here- the thin line between true victims and a system wrapped around pinning ANYONE with an opinion or outburst (who happens to be a man) as an abuser.
82 jlukas // Nov 25, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Thanks, Jen. And you’re right. I DO like you and my mother, … a lot. Neither has chosen the victim route in life, and neither has my sister, even though I’m sure they could have as my sister is dealing with the pain of losing her life partner at the age of retirement in this economy.
That’s just life. It sucks, but it’s life.
And you’re right about that twisted apology, from a poster called “survivor” no less. I will not turn her twisted logic on her own family unless she asks me to. She’s done enough damage and has shown the true face of professional victimhood.
I’m sorry, but it’s high time somebody label it as they see it.
This one looks and quacks like a duck…
83 survivor // Nov 25, 2009 at 9:02 pm
Jen, I appreciate your posts … but I do believe that it is possible for society to decide that violence is totally unacceptable. You took your son and left. I took my daughter and left. I also did not want to alienate her from her father. I was convinced that it was a unique conflict between the two of us and he would never impose the same kind of trauma on our daughter. But he did. I will always regret that I didn’t see it … but he was very cunning.
John, I want to offer my condolences on the death in your family. I’ve lost my father, brother and sister. It is a terribly difficult time, and I trust that you will find comfort and support.
I don’t know what else I can do in a blog post other than to offer an apology. I was sincerely interested in whether John had a traumatic experience that went deeper than his divorce, but when I realized that was inappropriate … I apologized. If that can get twisted into being abusive … well, I don’t know what to say about that. When I talk about abuse, I’m talking about physical injuries … which obviously isn’t possible in virtual reality. So, while I would never want to abuse John (or insult his mother) in any way … at least I haven’t assaulted him.
I will never believe that violence (especially in intimate relationships) is inevitable. And if there is violence, then I believe that the state has a responsibility to intervene and stop it. That’s exactly why we supposedly have the “rule of law.”
I am not trying to “trap” those who happen to lose their temper once. I am trying to expose those who treat their partners as property and force them to live in a constant state of fear and terror. I refuse to accept that the victim of that behavior is responsible for it and that they “should” be able to figure out how to escape all by themselves. Seems a lot like telling a kidnap victim that the cops and the FBI just don’t give a damn. They should figure out how to escape all by themselves, and then be sure not to tell anybody what happened because then they can call you a “victim” (a/k/a a LOSER).
To be honest, I spent almost 20 years with a sadly judgmental approach to “victims.” I got away. I ran thousands of miles to keep myself alive. I actually used that as some kind of “badge of courage” and I used to think that if other victims couldn’t stand up and get themselves safe, then shame on them. But, after working directly with victims at the scene with the SPD Victim Support Team, I realized that I actually had a lot of advantages that others simply don’t have. And just because they are underprivileged, or on drugs, or less intelligent, or whatever … that does not mean that somehow they “deserve” to be pushed out of moving cars, or beaten in front of their children. I will never forget responding to a VST call and finding the entire front door broken down and a woman’s small children clinging to her so tightly in terror that the EMTs could barely attend to her wounds. I don’t give a damn what she did “wrong” to make him attack her … HE was responsible and HE should have been held accountable.
I am not living in the grey area of a push here, or a shove there. I operate in the world of lethal danger and serious physical assault. I don’t do it because I think I’m a “victim,” but because there are a lot of people out there who are living in 24/7 terror.
I don’t have all the answers, and neither does John. Complaining that the “DV Industry” is some kind of evil comspiracy to attack innocent men is just ludicrous.
I have consistently stated that nobody should be allowed to make false allegations, but victims of violence should not be pushed into the hole of shame either. I don’t care whether they are male or female — in fact, male victims usually experience even more shame than females. Trying to put the burden on the victims … they “should” figure out how to escape … they “should” have known what they were getting into, etc., etc., just doesn’t hold water. The people who manipulate, emascualte, intimidate, threaten, and attack their partners should be held accountable for their crimes.
The LAST thing in the world I wanted anybody to know about me was that I had been “stupid enough” to let my husband hurt me. It wasn’t until my own daughter was hurt by a serial predator that I decided to speak out. She refused to take drugs, and I believe that is the only thing that really saved her. If he had been successful in getting her dependent on him for a drug habit, then she would have found herself turning tricks for him. Am I proud of her for not allowing it get THAT bad? Yes. Do I think that ANYBODY … even drug addicts … should be terrorized and blamed for the violence? NO, NO, NO! There was nothing worse in my life than knowing that I actually wanted that SOB to find an even more vulnerable woman that he could violate so that he would not be fixated on my daughter.
That is the reason why I work so hard to expose the truth about real DV. Not fake accusations. Not the bullshit in Family Law. I work with real victims, with real injuries … and too many of them have children who have been forced to watch the horror.
Once again, I may be unrealistic … but I will NEVER give up the hope that civilized people can learn to condemn violence and demand accountability. Anger can be expressed without physical assault. People do it all the time. There is NO EXCUSE.
84 jlukas // Nov 26, 2009 at 7:22 am
DV is defined as much more than physical violence and you know it. In fatc, it is often confused and grouped along with sexual deviancy and many other controlling behaviors, some of which you have exhibited in here.
What you speak of is real, but only comprises less than 10% of all DV cases, many of which are bullshit, and most which are mutually abusive. Your statistics won’t show that. Your statistics won’t show anything that includes women. And who winds up paying for this? Why many unsuspecting men, of course, who never envisioned that such well intended laws could be so frivolously abused.
I noticed you popped in on my site twice before finally responding with the same old party line yesterday. I’ve also noticed some “well known” ip’s monitoring this conversation all along, which tells me you needed help here.
Problem is, that last post is repetitive rhetoric and dodges the FACT that there’s no excuse for you, as you once again condemned yourself by acknowledging that there is no excuse for abuse, which we have shown you to be on this forum. So, why should I accept your apology if there was no excuse for your abusive remarks?
Yes, you are unrealistic, and this exercise shows why. I would prefer higher levels of acceptance for DV as well as forgiveness for the types of DV which I speak of, the MAJORITY of cases. And, I’m well aware of the types of cases that KL Gates is involved with, many of them being complex family court battles over frivolous allegations. If not, I’ve got a few cases in which you could redeem yourself with. Interested?
I doubt it.
85 survivor // Nov 26, 2009 at 10:11 am
I won’t argue about whether the acts that I am concerned about make up only 10% of DV cases. Even if you are right about that, are you saying that since 90% are less extreme (surely you don’t think that 90% are totally fake) then we should not provide any support to the 10% of violence victims? And your argument that I can be “abusive” by making one statement in an internet forum — however 90% of the cases where there are 911 calls are bogus — seems totally contradictory to me. What mistake I may have made here could not have actually harmed you unless you are an extremely emotionally fragile individual. Just for the record, a predictable tactic is for the abuser to claim to be the abused. Sound familiar?
Furthermore, I am careful to use the word “violence” rather than abuse. I hate emotional abuse, but I won’t argue with you about that level of bad behavior. What I have consistently stated is that there is NO EXCUSE for violence. It only takes ONE to walk away. I was not “allowed” to walk away. I was held against my will, trapped like an animal, and then hunted like one when I finally escaped.
Yes, there are many different definitions of DV. I focus on the more legal definition — physical acts (not emotional abuse) but I also include a history or pattern of behavior that isolates, intimidates, threatens and controls the victim. If a couple faces some extreme crisis and there is a push or a shove, that is assault. It is a crime and I believe it should be prosecuted. But it would not fit my definition of DV unless there had been a pattern of intimidating behavior.
Mutual combat in the home is just as damaging to the children (and to the adutls) as the 10% that I am most concerned about … and in those cases, both partners should be held accountable in some way. I would prefer community service, but if you’ve got a good treatment suggestion, that’s fine with me, too. There certainly needs to be some kind of intervention — especially if there are children. We don’t have to worry much about anybody going to jail for very long since even felony DV convictions will only result in about 18 months in jail. BTW, what are the stats for felony DV convictions in King County? Do you think those are bogus, too?
I “popped” in and nobody had responded so there was nothing to say. I have no idea who may be monitoring this thread, but I don’t need any “help” to participate — whatever you mean by that.
BTW, I am not an attorney. K&L Gates is one of the largest law firms in the world. They don’t care what I think about DV … or what I think about much of anything for that matter.
Once again, I am sorry for the loss in your family and trust that you may still be able to enjoy the holiday.
86 jlukas // Nov 30, 2009 at 10:01 am
A-G-A-I-N….
There are ALREADY laws on the books to describe the situations you describe. It’s called assault. Can you explain why these laws aren’t used and WHY DV laws were created to “replace” these laws?
As for me extremely fragile, go find another to harass. I’m simply pointing out that for a “victim”, or “survivor”, you seem to know how to push buttons and dish it out pretty well. Not exactly what I’d expect to find from the real thing.
As far as both being held accountable, you already know that is not happening. But, working for a law firm, whom I just may call, you know how to say the right thing than getting real. And you also know that. Without being too repetitive, you still sound like a duck.
87 survivor // Nov 30, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Feel free to call my employer. Did you think that would intimidate me??? Really scraping the bottom of the barrel aren’t you. Do you think they give a damn what you think? You do have a sense of humor, don’t you?
88 jlukas // Nov 30, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Nice dodge about the assualt laws.
89 survivor // Nov 30, 2009 at 2:56 pm
See my post in the other thread.
90 The JKH // Dec 1, 2009 at 11:55 am
So “survivor”
I am a victim of DV from my ex, Im still getting attacks from her and because of her anger and actions against me I cant get gainfull employment to ge medical or even money to pay for therapy.
Can YOU help me?
91 survivor // Dec 4, 2009 at 12:34 pm
I’m not sure. Individually, I don’t much to offer other than to help you develop a safety plan, try to offer suggestions about the various legal options available to you. Do you think she should be prosecuted and go to jail? If so, has she committed any other crimes like destroying your property, taking/stealing your car, tax evasion, opened your mail (a federal crime) etc. Sadly, we often have to approach abusers much like the G-Men had to go after the mafia. Can’t get them for the real crimes — but might be able to get them on something else as long as that “something else” is actually a crime. Did you have kids? Basically, before anybody could help you they would need more details. Why isn’t John helping you?????
However, I did just run into an old friend who’s son is being stalked by a former “girlfriend” and I was able to direct her to the SPD Victim Support Team where I know he would get solid advocacy services. Sadly, that type of program is very unique to Seattle.
92 jlukas // Dec 4, 2009 at 12:44 pm
Uhhhh…. I AM helping him.
All he wants is to have his name cleared and to be able to have this “ding” on his record cleared. He also wants to see his family, which has been kidnapped from him through abuses within the system. Jennifer Lord has enabled this woman and put many roadblocks in the way.
In short, that system can and often is very difficult, due to the bad statistics and information that drives the DV endeavors. It often takes years and thousands of dollars as well as a strong dose of intestinal fortitude to overcome what should be a simple process.
But, unfortunately, “due process”, “probable cause”, and other abuses of the system by those in power, along with judges who receive kickbacks from DCS in 17 counties within WA state make this all but impossible to overcome.
Just try and walk a mile in this man’s shoes and I guarantee that you would be outraged by the behaviors of the courts, judges, “experts” and all of those who enable the bad behaviors of the woman here.
And it’s all due to the vicious environment established towards men.
Disagree? Then show me ONE case where filing a false report or perjury has actually been pursued.
Just name ONE. And it has to be against a woman.
93 jlukas // Dec 4, 2009 at 12:46 pm
And, … a tip ‘o the hat for helping that man. We need more like you not just in Seattle, but nationwide. Along with the awareness that men are victims too.
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